Whirling with the language of Soul with Jimi Wollumbin (Part 1 & 2)
Whirling with the language of soul and understanding how to navigate the whirls of life helps us view the world in a deeper sense. As we talk about the whirling dervish of life with Jimi Wollumbin, join us and explore the language of the soul. In this new podcast episode, Jimi Wollumbinshares with us his expertise and shares with us his wisdom about life and creating space.
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Whirling with the language of Soul with Jimi Wollumbin (Part 1 & 2)
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Jimi Wollumbin Part 1
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[00:00:00] Host: Welcome to the today dreamer podcast. My name's Michael, I'm your host. I'm a meditation teacher, a musician, a mentor, and a conversationalist from Melbourne Australia. And this podcast, the today dreamer podcast is here to help you cultivate the practice of presence in your life in order to more fully participate or contribute to the.
[00:00:24] Emerging world story, as it unfolds. And it's blossoming today's guest, Jimmy woolen bin is, you know, just a beautiful being. I came across his work on Facebook as he was helping kind of relieve some of the
[00:00:46] suffering from a recent flood. In the north side of Australia. So Jimmy's work has been really beautiful to kind of witness from afar. So I thought I'd get in touch and see if you'd be interested in a chat. And he said, yes, I'll tell you a little bit about Jimmy before we get into things. Yeah. Let's just, let's just go with this bio.
[00:01:03] So Jimmy is not an, uh, a GP or an MD, but a doctor of traditional Chinese medicine. He's one of those rare individuals that is an expert in his field that also knows how to teach others. He's spoken at the United nations open for Deepak Chopra spoken alongside Bruce Lipton and has even been personally insulted by the Daiva.
[00:01:25] He teaches integrative doctors across America, sits on the faculty of America, integrative health and medicine association. And he's a lifetime member of the Tibetan medical Institute's friends of Tibetan. Having joined in 2002 as a regular member, he's now also an esteemed fellow of the Australian tradition medicine society.
[00:01:48] So I think that's all for an intro before we do get into things. As we do on every episode, I'm going to ask you to, or rather invite you to just pause for a moment from whatever's been happening in your day or in this week. You know, in this past month and just kind of take one or two really gentle, deep breaths with me, with us together.
[00:02:19] Before we get into this chat with Jimmy, feel free to gently close your eyes.
[00:02:27] Guest: Well, you
[00:02:31] Host: can leave them open if you. And as gracefully and as slowly as you ever have in your whole life prior to this moment, see if we can take in a nice, gentle inhalation through the nose.
[00:02:56] And whenever it is that you may reach the peak of this.
[00:03:02] There's an open invitation to just pause and feeling to the subtleties of that experience before gracefully exhaling, just as smoothly on the way out.
[00:03:38] Here's the conversation with Jimmy. So there's something that has happened. That was quite interesting in, in our coming together before we even knew that we were together in a way for this meeting. Yes. And it was this idea of the whirling dervish. Actually, huh. And I've heard you speak these words a few times.
[00:03:57] I didn't really know what it meant. So I had to look into it and it kind of synchronistically happens to be something that a friend of mine had recently inquired about. Cuz I speak about, you know, these kind of, um, practices of presence and, and it's kind of like the territory that I play in, um, on the podcast, the podcast is here to help people.
[00:04:18] Feeling to, or cultivate their practice of presence, whatever that may look or feel like in their lives, so that hopefully there can be some deepening or, or, or some kind of participation or contribution to the emergence of, of the blossoming of the, of the world's story. That's kind of coming into being.
[00:04:34] So this is kind of, I guess again, another sense of a container. Um, but the whirling dervish itself caught my attention because, um, It was kind of, yeah, I, I didn't know anything about it. And it was very interesting when I started looking into it and this golden thread kept unraveling into something quite marvelous.
[00:04:56] And I wanted to know, um, yeah, I guess another theme, quite, probably a, probably a deeper one that, that comes up now that we're kind of, that I've started rolling is this sense of, um, the body and. Almost like really, really having a look at that, having a chat about that and on, on a, on a really deep level, it would be nice to explore.
[00:05:17] Um, The, the question around the whirling dervish and how you've used it in terms of an analogy for the body and or for health and the idea of, um, I guess what, what is the body? What, what actually is the body? I, I think that's quite an interesting question, so I'm not sure if that's got right. Some things.
[00:05:38] Yes. Firing
[00:05:39] Guest: good. No, I just, it does indeed. Um, it really does, and that's really helpful. I just need to have a dance floor. Um, and then we can, then we can whirl. Yeah. Then we can swell and 12 together and see where it goes. Yeah. So, um, uh, because I, um, uh, fancy myself as a, uh, as, as. As a poet, uh, in, in blooming then, um, the words that I got outta that were the whirling Dian community.
[00:06:09] Um, and, uh, then we can touch upon those. Um, some of the questions that, you know, some of the, the sense of the, the community, like how does one walk, one spiritual path in community? You know, a lot of the models that we have are monastic and monk like and Sonya and reclusive and aesthetic and. Those are the models that we all live have.
[00:06:31] And the classical texts that we read by, and yet none of us are living that life. And so, you know, how do we, how do we integrate that? What do we do with those things? If we're not, uh, a Yogi and a cave or a monk into monastery, uh, how does one learn from, you know, all of that, that depth of wisdom that are those traditions, and yet apply it as a barista in Melbourne with a child that has autism.
[00:06:56] And a dog that has dandruff, let's put that into the mix and then see how, uh, all of those classical texts and ideas, uh, what, what they mean for us. Um, so yeah, I think that there's, there's an enormous amount we can discuss around soul spirituality, embodiment and. The modern world. Um, and that, does that sound like it's gonna speak to your, uh, your listeners and be, um, congruent with your
[00:07:26] Host: podcast.
[00:07:27] I feel like it already is. And I feel like anyone, if we are kind of putting this bit out, I think everyone is kind of already quite excited about the idea of it. Cause I feel like I am.
[00:07:38] Guest: fantastic. Well, let's keep going with that then let's just keep rolling with, uh, that question, uh, of how does, where is the place for soul?
[00:07:49] Here's the language that I'm this, right? Where is the place for soul? And spirit. Uh, although I, I define those things diff very differently, um, in the modern world, right? In the modern landscape, um, and the modern landscape, you know, we can define it however long we want, but at least. A hundred years ago or more than a hundred years ago, uh, Ys wrote, uh, the English, uh, Irish, mystic poet, golden Dawn, amazing character, um, wrote a poet, no Ts Elliot did Ts Elliot wrote the wasteland.
[00:08:26] Sorry, not Ys Ts. Elliot wrote this poem called the wasteland. And in a way the wasteland is, is modernity, but it's a wasteland of soul. It's the stark gray space of the rat wheel. It's it's that the world in all of its myriad of colors and textures and flavors and feelings dulls for the soul. Right. And so how in the post let's just say post-industrial era.
[00:08:59] Where there's concrete and factories and machines and efficiency and everything moves by the hands of a clock. You know, rather than the sort of more flowing seasons of monsoon and song, then how does one move through that rhythm as a cog in a wheel? Right? Not as a cog in a wheel. How does one inhabit?
[00:09:21] That divine watch that the divine watchmaker perhaps made to use that, that the debate that goes through Christian circles, um, instead as a whirling DVI, rather than a cog, how do we, how do we, how do we do that? That's a question, right? That's a question for, for you and I to try to explore. Where does one, how does one find soul?
[00:09:43] Not in the Himalayas 2,500 years ago. Not in a monastic order of San Frisco's, uh, of, of all sorts of different monks and monastery traditions or nuns, right in the middle ages. Right. Not as a, in central desert Australia, but as you know, As someone that has wifi bills, someone that has to catch public transport, someone that has all these responsibilities and lives in some form of indented slavery, most likely because the economic systems require us to keep moving.
[00:10:24] Cuz it's very hard to otherwise be fed and sheltered. Right. How, how does one, how does one not become a Crog in a wheel, but how does one move like a whirling D inside that space? Now that's a question for us, right. I don't know if I got the answers but I think the question is the most important thing that we ask that, and that we've, that it highlights for us that, um, what does it highlight?
[00:10:52] Uh, for me, what that highlights, uh, as an extra frame to this dialogue is that. The wisdom traditions of which both of us are passionate and have explored, right. Various different wisdom traditions. They are, they can't be taken. Literally. They are always a finger pointing to the moon. And if we instead get stuck too strongly on the wisdom tradition, like the text says.
[00:11:29] The bud said, you know, as soon as you're saying the bud said, the bud is laughing, the bud is laughing at you. As soon as you're pulling out your bud Bible and saying, no, no, no, the suture, this, the bud said, the bud is saying, this is why I wouldn't let you make statues of me for 1500 years. And, and this is why when I said, what shall, when you said, what shall we call you when you are gone?
[00:11:53] I told you, just call me thus. Don't call me Budha. Don't call me John. Don't call me TA don't call me any of those things. Cause I don't want you to get lost on the finger. I'm pointing at the moon. Watch where I'm pointing follow, seek what I sought. Don't follow me, seek, seek what I sought it's that way.
[00:12:15] And so traditions that were made in the past that are expressing something around a state of being. A state of being not a, not an external place, not like three streets on the left and around the roundabout, but navigating to an internal experience, an Asana or a dance of consciousness. That's what the bud is saying.
[00:12:44] Like this. Go like this, be like a flag in the wind. That's what Christ is saying. That's what they're all saying. That's what, you know, that's what the, the shamans are learning. It's like, you do this and you do that. And this is how you get to that, that place. This is how you get to that place. So those traditions have said all of these things about trying to get there, but they're wrapped up in all of this literal stuff, like the Bible as well, that, that has the external trappings of a culture that.
[00:13:14] Not ours, it's gone, but there's still hold diamonds. There's still hold diamonds. If, if we can learn to follow the gaze of where the finger is, that's pointing to the moon and not get stuck on that finger. Right. And so, so I've just said a lot of things. I've said the modern world is a wasteland for soul in a whole bunch of ways.
[00:13:43] And it wants to turn us into a Cogan wheel. And I've said, how do we instead be a whirling dervish in a modern wheel, in, in the modern world and in community, surrounded by people and responsibilities and pets and husbands and wives and work offices. How do we do those things? What we are talking about is inside accessing wisdom traditions from the past.
[00:14:02] And I'm so about that. Whether it's Amazonian or Egyptian, it sort of doesn't matter to me, like wisdom is wisdom. Um, but then how do we access those in a way that actually doesn't just leave us, um, doing things like, well, my Amazonian Bible says that I need to have four condo feathers and I need to put them in the each side of my wing.
[00:14:27] And then I must have this very, and if I do that, then I'll enter a spiritual. Oh, you really got the finger, then that's what you got. You didn't get the Bo you got the finger, right. And it's, that's, that's what we're talking about. Those are the complex questions that I think I'd love to try and tease out with you.
[00:14:45] What does that bring up for you? What are your thoughts? What's your wisdom and insight when you hear all of those?
[00:14:49] Host: Well, it's a beautiful, disgusting ideas. Yeah. It's a beautiful question. I, I, I kind of, what I'm kind of feeling into, I guess, is like looking at the moon with our eyes closed. And rather than kind of getting distracted by the finger with them open.
[00:15:03] So it's, it's almost like a, a, a feeling into, or a sense, um, a sensing into, of sorts, um, a feeling beyond the emotional sense and, and the body comes into that beautifully. And also when I, I was kind of listening to this, I'm not sure what religion it was. I think it might have been SU Sufism or Sufi. Or it came from roomy and it was this, it was this guy with a beard and it looked like a very wild, a wise guy with a beard.
[00:15:33] So it got more attention unsold. And it was a video from like 12 years ago or something. So it's been around for a while and he was talking about the whirling dervish. And if we're kind of sticking with this kind of space, it was, and with what you are saying about how do we kind of, um, You know, get, get the essence in a different kind of we're in a totally different kind of space right now.
[00:15:55] And this kind of, this, this, this, whatever we wanna call it, it's this, it's this new paradigm. It's this new, new space that we're existing within. How do we kind of, um, I've been dancing around the idea of bringing the monastery into the home, um, but in our own way, so it kind of fits quite nicely into what the questioning that we are kind of moving into.
[00:16:17] But when he was speaking about the whirling dervish, he was saying that as, as they were, there's almost like everything in the universe. Is moving. And the whirling is, is a movement as well. That's kind of an accentuation of that and a representation of that. And the, the, the feet on the floor is like this grounding element.
[00:16:40] And. The whirling itself creates the movement that raises, raises you up to the moon in a sense, maybe from that sense of feeling. And as we will, it's almost like the tension point between the ground and, and that, that, that kind of movement, or that spiral upwards, that is kind of that's, that's kind of the place to be.
[00:17:00] That's kind of where it's at. It's interesting that, um, it, that, that, I'm kind of like trying to connect that with what you are saying. It feels like it does connect kind of naturally. Um, but it's this space in the middle and it, and it can't, you can't really get there by staring at the finger or putting those feathers in your hat.
[00:17:19] It needs to be somehow. Um, access cuz there is a diamond there and it's, it's, it's kind of hidden in plain sight. It seems, which is interesting. Yes. And it's yes. It's almost like how do we feel into that space and yeah. And, and it there's all these phrases, you know, let go surrender or um, yes. You know, there's all these stuff that comes up.
[00:17:40] Um, and they can all feel like
[00:17:42] Guest: a finger at particular points. Can't they it's just like, oh, just surrender. It's like. And fuck you too. I've heard that.
[00:17:48] Host: just let go.
[00:17:49] Guest: Exactly. Yeah. Oh, great. That was easy. Just let go now. I've got it. Thank you. Yeah. I should have looked at that section of my Bible and then I'd be fine.
[00:17:57] You know, like
[00:17:58] Host: yeah. What comes up for me is almost like a, a, a gradual kind of how this process is gradually unfolding and it's, it's almost like. Less force maybe, um, needed to be applied or something. And maybe there's a, there's a, there's a natural moving into and an acceptance of, of a recognition that that's happening, um, already.
[00:18:20] And it's okay. Wherever we're at in that process. Um, but then at the same time, almost like that, I don't know. There's there seems to be a. Um, a calling forth or a need from a collective level. Um, but without panic. So it's, it's a kind of like a paradoxical thing. It's like a yes. Yeah. I don't know. That's kind of what comes up.
[00:18:42] I'm gonna throw it back or kind of great allow the breeze to flow back in your direction. Yes.
[00:18:48] Guest: Wonderful. Um, so there was lots in there. Um, one of the things that it's, um, it RA it adds to me to the discussion as well is rather than just, how does one. I wanna say caught soul, you know, behold the moon and caught soul, like a lover, not just in modernity, in the wasteland, in the machine, on the treadmill, but also in community as a, as a social being, you know, in, in the village.
[00:19:19] Right. And you know, so many of our stories, uh, as well are of, uh, are of suggest to us. Spirit spirit is found outside of the world, beyond the world, above the world, outside of the village, the shaman has his or her, uh, hut outside the away from the main thrust of the, of the village, like away from the pig, from the chickens and the, and the butcher and the, and the candle stick maker, you know, like the shaman's out, the monastery is out and spirit.
[00:19:57] Is up hovering above. We must transcend. It's like a ghost it's it's ethereal spirit is other otherworldly it's numbness. And so there's all of these things, uh, suggesting outside of life. The, the, the, the thing that you you are yearning for is found somewhere outside, away from the. Away from the children away from the bills, like, yes.
[00:20:24] Yes. . It must be away from these things for sure. Because the wasteland is such a, you know, it's such a wasteland, it must be away. Um, and so we're not living in a tent or a hut or a monastery outside of the village. We're living very much inside the village and I'm living, uh, you know, in a family, right.
[00:20:46] And, and so how does the, the extra question that I think it's really important for us is, is to, to be asking, um, with all of those images in mind, that, of the old world, and now the fact of our, where our current circumstances, how does one learn from those masters? Like rooming? How does one learn to. Right.
[00:21:12] And that whole, all of the whirling D all the whirling that you've seen and all that beautiful imagery and that great tradition that's gone a thousand years now is because roomy was, was walking through the village. he was walking through the town square or the village. And there was, I think, Uh, bells that rung, or there was, there was a part, something happened right in the world, but something in the world that's here, let's say it was bells.
[00:21:38] And the soupies will correct me when I turned out that I got that wrong. Something happens in the world and then he's just, ah, delighted by it. Right. And he just stands there in the middle of the square and he just starts turning and he just starts turning. That's the first, he was the first whirling Durish, you know, and it's there it is.
[00:22:04] And that was a spontaneous expression of RRY where he was transported by the village bells. Let's say, you know, but it, it could be, it could have been, it could have been a murmuration of swallows and roomy still would've 12, right? It could have been a thunderer clap. Know, it, it could have been, I think, you know, like a, a bitch having puppies in this corner of the street and he still, he still could have world.
[00:22:35] Right. And the point is, it was, it was in the world and it was in the body as well. And so that's why I direct people towards soul. Increasingly at this point as an antidote to the disembodied and ethereal nature of spirituality, spirit, ghost ghosts, outside of the world, above the world, transcending the world beyond the world with the dichotomy that we've got of, here's the material stuff, and here's the spiritual stuff.
[00:23:07] And our world is dominated by material stuff, and then we wanna escape it into the spiritual stuff. Right. And those kinds of myths and models that are so common in, in the new age, at least, you know, very common. I don't think they're effective. I think they leave us with a finger and they don't leave us with the moon.
[00:23:28] They don't enough, not enough. Do they leave us? All of us, meaning me they don't leave me. They didn't leave me with that as a whirling dervish in the midst of the village. They left me as a cog that Jen then spun and spun and spun. And then just sort of like, ah, tried to get outta here and went and walked barefoot around India for a whole bunch of time or, you know, ate out of dumpsters.
[00:23:56] And then just, you know, was like, ah, well then I just have to reject all of that. And then I got a woman pregnant and here I am in the world now and, and I can't reject all of that and follow the, the renunciate path. So then what does that mean? Do I just lament that I'm stuck here in the material world and that spirituality Hobbes above, and I can only escape it, the material world in peak experiences, meditative or IO or induced, or, you know, sun dancing or whatever it is that I can only access the other world of spirit in those transcended moments.
[00:24:33] When I get out and beyond all of this, or, or is soul. Yeah, soul, which is classically the bridge between spirit and body soul, soul delights in the world. Soul is the language that we have that says it's the part of us that came to work and to try and to fight and to love and to lust and to lose and to swirl, to be swelled around, to be swelled around by the world.
[00:25:06] To, to grow sick, to grow old, to give birth, to have Dre, to, you know, to have soul says yes to all of it. Soul says, bring it on. I'm going on this, right. Take me down. I wanna jump down feet first or head first through that birth canal. And here we. You're like, yeah, I just read the contract, you know, there will suffering and strife and discord, it will not be comfortable.
[00:25:37] And so I was like, yeah, that's a part of the point. Right. I go and do that then afterwards. I feel great. Yes. So the language for me of soul has what has, uh, largely replaced the language of spirituality, even though spirit is something that I think is a beautiful concept that still needs to be up upheld.
[00:25:55] I tend to direct the conversation. For myself and think in terms of soul more because it is the bridge between those poles that we've separated in the west body and spirit. Right. And because it enables us to access something that is not the wasteland inside, inside the wasteland and inside community, but still within family, within loneliness within mortgages, soul says.
[00:26:27] And can say yes, this too is fodder for my fire. Yes. Give me your drudgery. Yes. Give me your pain. Yes. Give me your tragedy and your heartache and your loneliness. Give me the challenge. The soul set. Soul says that now of course, too much of any of those things can result in trauma. Right. And then it's, it's not growthful in any way.
[00:26:52] And that's, that's, that's rough, but you know, rough is a tri way to say it. Um, but, but still having a language that enables us to say yes to actually where we find ourselves with wifi and smartphones and, you know, clothes all made in China and feels that we need to pay all sorts of little, you know, That's where we're at, man.
[00:27:15] That's the reality for the vast majority of human beings today. So how do we have that and not make that a wasteland? How, how do we do that? Cause that's where we are. There are those things. We inhabit a place of charm at times. And, and is that the thing that you do and then as you must do, and then you can climb your mountain and experience something meaningful.
[00:27:42] And something larger than yourself or are, is there other language where we can say where it can bring it down here and in this continent on Australia, it's, it's not a transcendent, it's not an Indian, like Lato up into the sky. It's not chakras lined up and elements lined up in a linear fashion. That goes up, up, up, up and away.
[00:28:06] It's not that it's here down. It's in the earth. That what is sacred. Is here. It's manifest. It's not it's, it's, it's, it's imminent, right? It's not transcending our world. That, which is magical. That, which is meaningful, that, which we yearn for most deeply is not above hovering above the world. It's in the land.
[00:28:31] It's in your feet, it's in your bones. It's in your menstrual blood. It's in your sweat. It's in your aching muscles and your aching back. Know, it's here. It's definitely in the, in the land. And so you it's that, that's why we incarnate. Perhaps if we just add in some extra new age philosophy on top of that, we, into that embodied experience, embodied experience, that that contains all of those things.
[00:28:57] We exist in a cosmos, not only that has the weak nuclear force and gravity and all that stuff, but we exist in a cosmos that has hemorroids. It does, perhaps there's other universes in the multiverse where hemorrhoids don't exist, but the universe that we've we exist in has hemorrhoids. And so how do we, how do we inhabit this universe with it's hemorrhoids, you know, uh, where we can experience.
[00:29:22] All of those things, right? All of those snotty hard glitchy, awkward scratchy, gurgly, embodied, sunburnt, bloody fiery that's that's the domain that we find ourselves in. And can we on our journey here? Take that. And say and find a way to, to alchemically transmute that the wasteland to take the wasteland of the world, right?
[00:29:58] The outside of the world, the wasteland is the finger. You know, it's not the moon, it's the outside, it's the signpost, rather than Rome going Rome and getting all of the architecture. It's the signpost, you know, like in 1500 kilometers to the left that says. And that's where you're sitting on. Right? It's like how, but how do we take the external, the wasteland of the world and how do we transmute it so that it is an Oasis so that it nourishes the part of us that yearns for connection, that yearns to be a part of something larger that yearns to behold the moon and be transported by that.
[00:30:39] How do we do that in the world? In. Community in modernity, in a marriage in a mortgage, just keep listing them off, right. In a wheelchair, like, you know, like in a traumatized system, you in, in a life that didn't have parents that were kind, you know, tho those are the, I think if we're gonna talk. Soul or spirituality than which we are.
[00:31:18] Then for me, I find so much danger in the way in which it's normally spoken of, that there is a, a great harm that is done by selling people, a beautiful, a beautiful story that, that ends up giving them the finger. That ends up living them on the outside if we're not careful. And so that's my deepest concern about anyone coming into traditional medicine of like, yeah, you can just end up on the outside of this tradition after 20 years, you just inside it.
[00:31:50] And it's just another religion. It's another ideology. It's another ism. Ah, no, the yellow says, you know, and he's don't even you, you're on you didn't follow what the yellow emperor is seeking. You just follow what the em, yellow emperor says. It's a trap. Don't do that. That's not it. That's not, it be very careful about deep, long, beautiful traditions of which I am an advocate in medicine.
[00:32:16] And I would say the same in terms of one's soul, not to push them away. Cause then you've just got the wasteland. Right. But how do we, how do we entertain these two things? And the normal way in which people speak about it. I find teams seems to give us this dichotomy of there's the world and the drudgery, and then there's the spirit up here.
[00:32:35] And then we do that when we're meditating and otherwise this stuff is not spiritual, which includes all of my funny emotions as well. Like my possessiveness and my jealousy and my rage and my masturbatory fantasies, all this stuff that just exists, but sort of like, ah, there's no space for it. Whereas soul says, yes, yes.
[00:32:54] To the, to the anger and the outrage. Yes. To the masturbatory fantasies. Yes. To the yes. To, so that's what I find more inclusive and more. That's what leads me more frequently. Not I'm trying to inhabit some higher state of consciousness than you or anyone else that's listening to. I don't, but it leads me more frequently to a state where I feel like I'm able to behold the moon or that I am.
[00:33:22] That whirling dervish amids the flu and flow of life, or just that I'm not in the wasteland. You know, I often am in the wasteland but those are the ways in which I, I think about it or speak about it. That helps me to. To minimize the territory of the wasteland inside my mind and my life and my heart in terms of what, what, what's the wasteland?
[00:33:52] What, what am I saying no to what's the non-spiritual, you know, So we can't just concentrate all of our fairy dust over here in the Buder realms in heaven, in the shamanic seventh realm of, you know, like whatever in the chuckers, all of the, all the stuff that's glittering and beautiful and meaningful and magical is over there in this category.
[00:34:15] And then most of the world is a wasteland and it's just not a chucker. You know, it's a, dishwash. It's a bloody dishwasher, you know, it's like ho hum at best. Right? How can we frame this as citizens of the modern world, as people that are outside of tradition, rediscovering new traditions, yearning for something yearning for connection, yearning for what yearning for what are we yearning for?
[00:34:43] What's our language? Is it spirit or is it. Makes a big difference. You earning for something, these, these are the ways in which I speak about it and think about it and approach it. Uh, and I'd love to hear your thoughts and reflections on that.
[00:34:59] Host: Toast comes up for me for some reason. great.
[00:35:04] Guest: awesome. Toast. Is there anything more sublime and soulful than fresh hot for me buttered toast.
[00:35:11] Exactly what a great
[00:35:12] Host: example, but it comes up in a strange way. Cause I guess if you leave the toast under the grill for too long, it gets burnt and then it takes a little bit of space from that environment to kind of, you know, take it. And in a very sacred and ordinary way slowly start to kind of, you.
[00:35:32] With the butter knife, get rid of some of that Ash. And I think what you were sharing there, um, in terms of even your own journey from one extreme of the spectrum to the other, and then finding a way somewhere in the middle, um, to dance. I, I think that was quite a beautiful, um, representation of a deepening of soul through that experience.
[00:35:53] So I feel like even if that does happen and those traps have fell into, um, which has happened to me as well in yes. Quite a similar way. Yeah. I think there's, there's still like a deepening of that in installment process, which will, you know, allow those footsteps to, I don't know, feel more embodied, um, There is something about, you know, connecting to the, the, yeah, the sacred within the ordinary that is quite, um, quite a beautiful thing to touch and to touch more and more regularly or, or gradually, you know, at least have an ambition to do that.
[00:36:26] I think that itself creates the space for other people as well. And this idea of, um, practically walking rather than kind of dictating. Um, is something that I've been kind of looking into recently and this idea of really just helping or participating and, and contributing by the footsteps themselves. Um, but yeah, I can definitely kind of feel into what you're saying around, you know, the, the care that's that's deserved in that space.
[00:36:57] And, um, Yeah. Also this idea of the space itself and having, having a moment to breathe amongst the community and finding where your kind of balance of, you know, this is my space for, for using mine in this kind of regular way. But this is the, this is the time that I can kind of sit here and, um, breathe into a, a bit of space so that when I do reenter the community.
[00:37:26] Um, in this, this kind of dancing motion as the 12 goes on, I'm able to find that middle space between kind of the heaven, the heavens and the earth, like in the middle of that spin, it's like this, this, I guess it's a, it's kind of a balance point, but it's always shifting and always moving. So it's never a kind of a solid thing.
[00:37:46] And it there's a sense of it being, being this real, this real kind of, um, Yeah, there is this kind of, what's the word? It, it feels like there's a, um, harmony or, or, or, um, yeah, harmonious, um, joining of vibrations that kind of meet in a space where it just kind of, there's a singing that takes place and, and, or it feels like maybe you're on some kind of a track or something and the rhythm can be right.
[00:38:12] Yes. And it can only be really felt into you can't really measure it or quantify. And when you're on that kind of a path or track, you kind of know it. And when you're not, you know, it as well because there's signals that can be quite difficult and overwhelming, especially, um, You know, depending on where you are and how far you are off that track.
[00:38:31] Um, but they are just kind of signals. And I think there's this kind of, um, yeah, just feeling into when the toast is ready and not, and, and if it is burnt, that's okay as well. We just need to be mindful about taking it out and scraping off the Ash. Um, it. It's not gone or destroyed. Um, but that's kind of what comes up for me with the sharing and also this thing that you've, you've said in the past, around this ease, and, and this is almost like a personally quite a confusing part of my explorations at the moment is this idea of managing the environment.
[00:39:06] It's like the idea of it itself. Yes. And, and, and like, there is a part of that that requires a sort of intentional management, but then that kind of dances along with the idea of just. You know, smiling at the difficulties as well. And, and like you said about them realizing that that's part of the insolvement process.
[00:39:24] So there's something to do with, you know, how do I, you know, amongst this kind of, um, plague and amongst this kind of collapse and amongst this kind of, you know, um, This, this, this, um, intense sense of, of chaos energy, you know, um, how do I find the space within that and how do I maybe manage my environment?
[00:39:48] Um, both, you know, um, from, in terms of my body and, and the kind of microcosms and, and, and like the, you know, and also, um, You know the space in which that I live and the kind of seemingly outta, outta realms, which are obviously all connected, but how do I kind of manage that? And the people that I interact with and, and, um, you know, being quite, quite conscious and intentional about who and how I, I have those interactions, um, with, and yeah, there's, it's, it's quite a complex thing, but I think the, the main thing seems to be.
[00:40:24] Um, the space and also, um, it, it seems like both, like, it seems like there's an allowing and a, a touching the sacred within the ordinary and a, and a kind of recognition of that in the moment through the breath for some reason. And then there seems to be a, um, what's coming up for me is also, um, gradually moving.
[00:40:47] In a, in a better kind of in, towards a better managed environment or creating that space by either taking time away so that there can be that kind of balance or by kind of rearranging things, but in a gentle kind of natural way. I dunno. That's I just wanna know what you feel
[00:41:03] Guest: about that. Yes, yes. Yeah.
[00:41:04] Good. There's there was a lot in there. The part that I, the theme that came out for me repeatedly, that I'd like, Uh, respond to, is this the ambiguity of the term space, right? Yeah. Um, and so on, on, in, on the one hand we use space as in time and space. It's matter. It's here and we've, we've we've. We've made space, a tangible thing.
[00:41:27] You know, this is my space. Welcome into my space. Yeah. You know, oh, you're two, this you, you're two in my space, you know, you two in my face. Um, and, and, um, on the other hand, though, we say in the new age, now people will say, oh, I was just holding space for them. And in that moment where we are saying something very different, it's like, uh, holding, holding space.
[00:41:49] What do you mean? Did, were you. What was going on there. It's like, we know what you mean, but we are using, we're using it in a very different way. Right? We're saying I was bringing deep presence to that moment. Right. I was holding space for them. I was bringing deep presence and it's very different to, uh, a map wherein space are my.
[00:42:11] Glasses right now are they by the phone? Not, you know, like, so we've got these two different things. And again, our, um, our, our culture has our culture has materialized space at a, at a, at a bottom level. Right. Um, at a, from a scientific perspective. Um, and I think that. Part of our, part of the wasteland is the schism that has been made that gives us this bifocal lens that splits the world in half.
[00:42:42] That creates. An up and a, down to everything, a right, and a wrong, uh, a body and the spirit, you know, like a left and a rightio, a good and a evil, you know, an us and a them. There's just, it's a victim and a perpetrator. Every, everything we've got these goggles on and everything fits into wi once one of those, you know, desirable or undesirable good and bad, you know, and, um, and that lens, which has split space off and put it in this particular way is partly what creates the wasteland.
[00:43:12] Is that we exist in an external space space as something outside of me, space as in the place, the literal space of where my glasses are when I can't find them. However, the experience that you are speaking about the experience of the whirl in dage, that's a, that's not, it's not like you must do it in pers.
[00:43:41] That's the space you go in. Well, where, which was the town that roomy did the spinning and where was it? You know, like I must go there, swing those bells. Obviously you must not that's right. Or how, how many rotations did he do per minute and exactly where was his hand in the thing? And then you turn his head.
[00:43:58] He's like also wrong. Like you can see how that could be either a beautiful spiritual practice or it could be a dogmatic. Where they're just like, and on that day he had the sandals on that had red paint on the left strap. So we must always wear the red. Ah, and if one does not, then one should have one's beard, shaven and chased naked through the town and shamed with goose feathers and let it be known for all time.
[00:44:22] You know, like there's something lit there's, there's an, there's an autistic literalism to the way in which our dogma and our dogmatic mind wants to grab a hold of things. Right. And so those prac that's what we do with traditions. We, we simplify, it says in the Bible, it says the thing. And so the space that we're talking about, we say, then we do that because space is different to spirit there's space that we can explore in a rocket ship and there's spirit, which is something that hovers above that you can't take a rocket ship to spirit.
[00:44:56] Because this rocket ship can only take me through space, right? so we've got this weird ambiguity and sense around the world and where and what it is because we've
[00:45:08] Host: ified the world. Thank you for your participation. In this episode of the dreamer podcast, I'll leave links on our beautiful guest in the show notes section on the website, where you can check out all their wonderful work and offerings.
[00:45:22] And if you're interested in working one on one with me, feel free to head over to today. dreamer.com and get in touch. Also, if you would like to participate in some group meditation sessions online that I'm offering for free only to listeners of the show. Then, please send me an email through the contact form on the website.
[00:45:44] I'll add you to the list and, um, I'll give you all the details to that. And any other upcoming kind of offerings around helping your development in this space. Thank you so much again.
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Jimi Wollumbin Part 2
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[00:00:00] Host: Welcome to the today dreamer podcast, a project that's dedicated to helping you cultivate your own practice of presence. My name's Michael, and I'm your host. I'm a meditation teacher, a musician, a mentor, and a conversationalist that's currently based in Melbourne Australia. And it's my hope that through listening to these conversations and through these kind of shared spaces, that you'll be able to feel more empowered and more enabled in participating and contributing to the blossoming of the emergent world story.
[00:00:39] So hopefully you'll find some clarity through these chats, some inspiration and motivation. This is a part two of a two part series. So if you haven't yet, I would like to kind of point you to part one, to have a listen. And if you have then. You know, sit back, relax and enjoy this episode before we do get into it.
[00:01:01] I would like to invite you to pause with me for a moment as we have the space to just be through the practice of an inhalation and exhalation, feel free to focus in on one object in the distance, in your field of vision, or you may even like to close your eyes for a moment and as slow, slowly and gracefully as you possibly can.
[00:01:33] As a nice, gentle, open invitation to begin toe through the nostrils,
[00:01:47] noticing any subtleties of your experience.
[00:01:55] Just pause for a moment
[00:02:12] Guest: at the peak of your inhalation before gently releasing just as slowly and gracefully the way out, there's an
[00:02:24] Host: open invitation to continue this process. As we lead into part two of this conversation, you might like to continue all the way through .
[00:02:34] Guest: Yeah, let's get into it.
[00:02:44] So I was gonna start with the contagious of the space. And then can you continue on with that bit? I'm gonna respond specifically to the contagious of the space. So, so yes, at times, space can be a wasteland and a traffic jam or a, a terrible shopping mall or whatever. The thing the, the wasteland is to you, you know, is a tra a traffic jam.
[00:03:04] Not many people dig traffic jams, or the space can be a temple. When the space is a temple, it's contagious in a way that means that we are no longer in literal space. We are in sacred space and by sacred space means we are in a state of being, and we are in a process. And what the space is, is not just things that a rocket ship can take us to or things that we can Don Don against our heads.
[00:03:34] The space is the music. The space is the, the feeling, the space is the suchness. Then the, the rent, the, the, the, the gash, the wound between the world and spirit is healed. And the space is the totality. The cosmos in that moment is all that is the case. It's not just the stars and the planets and the matter and the spoons and the pen.
[00:03:58] It is all that is the case. And all that is the case. Is those, the heartstrings of our, of our heart that are playing that divine music that is resonating with the stars that is causing us to turn on the spotlight rooming in that moment and participate. With the, a, every ATO in our being that is swirling around like a swirling ish and every planet that is swirling around like a woring the whirling Durish.
[00:04:25] And we too then just participate in that. And the space that we're in is not, uh, and a U not USLI, a USID space. It's, it's, it's a much larger notion of space at that point. And that space then is not a, a destination on a map, right? Not a literal destination on a map. It is a process or an experience. And so that's, that's the, that's the trick, right?
[00:04:53] It's like, how do I get there if it's like, oh, how do I get to the shops? Easy, go down there and turn left. Got it. Easy. How do I get to where roomy was to say, well, you put one hand here, you put the other hand there and you put red on your sandals, and then you turn that. It's not a, it's not that easy. Is it?
[00:05:13] it's it's not that easy. We can't do it in that. We need different language that evokes for us. And we do need a contagious space. We do need set and setting. We do need the environment. We do need a community that resounds and carries us towards whirling. You know, rather than a community that constantly just takes us into a, a hellish realm of, you know, abuse and emptiness and you know, like whatever it is.
[00:05:40] Right? So all those things are really, really important. And they're all emphasized, you know, the, the, the Buddha, the sunga and the DMA, the sunga is the community, right? The community is crucial. The space is crucial. The environment is crucial. But when we're talking about that, we have to de literalize it.
[00:05:58] We have to de literalize this space there. And in order to do that, then we come down into these basic ideas that we have ingested the, the lens that you and I see the world through. We thi we like to say that we don't, but we actually do. We see the world through a dualistic lens. And we've got these glasses on.
[00:06:15] And some part of our process is trying to take the glasses off. It's like, how do we take the glasses off? So everything doesn't look like it's separated in this, in this way. Cause I feel like there's a me and there's a you and there's a me in the world and there's a right and a wrong and an up and a down and a good and a bad.
[00:06:31] And I don't want that experience. And I want that. It really looks like that. If I'm honest, that's my experience. And if you are honest, that's your experience as well. What we're talking about is there's moments when it doesn't like that when behind not just, it doesn't like that, but it doesn't like that.
[00:06:47] And those moments feel real in a different way. They feel fulfilling in a different way. There's a suchness and an undeni ability to them. They say I had, I went there, like I know I've been to the, a casino. And I know I went to that space and in that space, those goggles came off for a moment and I peered over the edge.
[00:07:13] And I be held, I partook in I world in a universe that was not at war with itself in a universe that was not divided in a community, in a relationship in a moment, in a moment in time that was timeless that had no path, no future, all of those things, there was no up and down left and right. Us and them.
[00:07:36] And I've glimpsed that. And there's some people that seem to have done more than glimpse it and their stories guide us like a finger towards the moon of saying, come it's like this. And you're like, oh, but I can't spin. Oh, well, forget about this spinning. There it's like this. It's like, ah, but I've got bad knees.
[00:07:55] Forget about the knees. It's like this, hang yourself from the screen and take the wait. You know, like it doesn't, it doesn't like a good teacher will be give you a different ways to like to point it out. Different analogies, different fingers. It's that way. And then the person says, so I do this with my fingers.
[00:08:15] No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't focus on my fingers. Look that way, go move, move, like move over that way more. and it's a hard process to, to in our literalized and some, and, and, and wounded culture and state that we find ourselves in fragmented in our tradition, from our wisdom traditions, huge interruptions between them an enormous amount that was not able to be passed down.
[00:08:43] We're all, not just wounded and fragmented, but a bit kind of spiritually and soulfully autistic. Right. That's modernity in my, in my mind. Yeah. It's a great, very clever and very good in so many things, but spiritually autistic I'm hi, I'm Jimmy Willum I'm spiritually autistic, please, to meet you. I'm I'm not accusing other people of this, right.
[00:09:04] Because of the history of, of my peoples, right? The witch hunts that this, that, that the, you know, When I look at the old teachings when I go back and I look at, you know, I, I look at impedes and, uh, and PGOs, and all, you know, these before that split took place before even Playto in the fifth century BC, when I go back, back, back, when those splits weren't there, then the way in which they sing across the ages, not what they say, but the way in which they sing.
[00:09:37] Can you tell me more
[00:09:38] Host: about the way in which they sing? Tell me more about that. Cause you, you seem to the way in which they sing. Yeah. You seem to have, you know, dived into these, these chapters of, of history and, and I'm curious to see what you found in that, in that specific opening.
[00:09:53] Guest: So, um, so the, so let me stay on that the way in which they think the things that I am saying to you today, Have some value in them in, in a way that you can write them down and say, Jimmy said, there's some of that.
[00:10:07] There's some value. There's something else that's taking place in our conversation right now, which is the way in which I'm speaking to you. And the way in which I'm speaking to you is the place in which I'm speaking from and the place in which I'm speaking from right now, there's a particular state.
[00:10:24] And I am not speaking to you like this, even though I speak to other people like that all the time.
[00:10:33] Right now, I'm speaking to you from a particular space within me from a particular soulful stance, right? I'm speaking from that place. And as I speak from that place, then it resounds in you and the heartstrings, the sympathy, the, the, the harmony resounds, and you start to automatically whirl with me and we whirl and both of us.
[00:11:01] Then, and it feels somewhat hypnotic even. And both of us start to change the space, the feeling that we have, not because of what I'm saying, but because of the way in which I am singing the place, the space from which I am speaking is contagious. And you are feeling that I'm assuming in a way, in the same way that the space of the shopping wall will you'll feel that.
[00:11:28] And it's, Contag in a different way. That's what I'm saying. The people that, that sing across the ages and when I look back and I, and, and you look at the feeling of, and some people just sing at any point in history, they, you, you can tell they're like the roomies of the world, you know, that have you, you it's undeniable, even in translation, you can feel, oh, that they're singing from a place, right.
[00:11:53] So then how to learn from that, how to drink from that is not just to be like, okay, what exactly did roomy say? And what were the 10 most important commandments that he gave spiritually wrong
[00:12:10] while roomy chance? Just don't try and write anything down and just allow yourself to start to whirl, allow yourself to be world around. And there's that whirling that takes place. And then a little part of you whilst I'm doing this, that's whirling you around and you're understanding it standing still, but some other part of you is flowing.
[00:12:33] A little part, just says, hang on a second. What was the point here? What was the point? A little part? Just like shit. I'm getting confused. The mind says that it's like, yes, the whirling is a place where understanding stands still. This is a, uh, From anyway, not my wisdom, understanding standstill. And, um, and that's the process.
[00:12:56] That's the place that we are going to the place where understanding standstill, that's the place where beholding takes place. And it's a, it's a, it's a state of beholding are beholding of the moon. And by moon, we're saying whatever you wanna insert into that God soul, the cosmos, the mystery truth, mystery
[00:13:19] Host: meaningfulness coming up for me as you're sharing this.
[00:13:23] Guest: Yes, absolutely understanding stands still because the larger thing of which we are a part of which we year to participate in of which we need to feel ourselves, not as a cog and a wheel, but as a cell and a being, you know, as, as an atom inside Gere, as a rotation, inside a rotation inside a spiral, inside a spiral, then the part of us that yearns for that.
[00:13:47] Then it, uh, it it's, it's larger what we're earning for. So it's mysterious in the same way. The liver is mysterious to a liver cell and Jimmy, you know, I mean the bacteria in my anus must, you know, having debates at times, like, do you believe in Jimmy? He is like, ah, I've been from one end of this asshole to another.
[00:14:08] I've never seen anything remotely like this Jimmy that you keep talking about. How could a cell in my asshole know about and understand Jimmy and you know, like at some level there's, so there's something, there is something deeply mysterious about it, but a cell in Jimmy's asshole can participate in Jimmy and in the mystery of Jimmy and in the oneness of Jimmy in particular moments.
[00:14:30] And, and, and so can we, we can participate in that. We can participate in that great spiraling, you know, this is, this is what, this is what. Our wisdom traditions tell us in a thousand different voices, as far as I understand, have understood them, as far as I have drunk from not that this is my constant state or I'm some sort of guru or enlightened person.
[00:14:52] I am not anyone that doubts it. Just ask anyone that knows me but, um, but yes, you understand what I'm saying? Right? Like this we're yearning. The, the mystery is because we're part of something larger. We're yearning for that and we can participate in it, but we can't understand it. And our culture has trained us to attempt to consume and understand and grasp everything.
[00:15:18] But there are things that are beyond our grasp that can, that that must be experienced. There is being, being is beyond our understanding. One cannot understand being one must be . One must be. It contains its own revelation inside there, but it's still not understood. It's experienced it's AOSIS right. It's a nosis.
[00:15:46] And that's the challenge inside our spiritual traditions and our soulful traditions and our wisdom traditions is that they are pointing us towards experiences that cannot be understood experiences that cannot be perfectly articulated experiences that cannot just be dog. Right. But they can be these experience.
[00:16:07] The, the, the, the experience of the mystery, these, all of these experiences are caught, not taught, right. Caught, not taught. And so to continue on that contagion thing that you, that's why to hang out with a guru or Aman or a roomy, or, you know, to go into a monastery is to, it's like go in there and catch it.
[00:16:35] You wanna just. Open up and just, and breathe it in. It's just like, and you know, like, alright all, yeah. You know, no, bring it in and you wanna catch, you wanna catch that? And so when I go, you know, traditions and I go to Siberia or Mongolia or Nepal or somewhere, then I'm, I'm going to walk that land, that, that birth, that wisdom, knowing that that wisdom is in the rocks and in the mountains and the rivers.
[00:17:12] And that it's also in some special in the culture at large, there's some part of the spirit of that wisdom tradition. That's there in the supermarkets and in the little stalls on the side of the road, it's there. And I'm just trying to catch it. Yeah. I, I wanna learn some things. I learned some stuff as well.
[00:17:30] I was like, what are the different ways that you analysis has done and what are the bubbles make cool? I've learned some things, but the larger piece. Is not, I cannot be taught and must be caught. So we go to the environment, we go to the place we go to roomy. We drink, we listen to roomy so that he will die the wool of our soul.
[00:17:51] Not so that we may understand roomy since roomy is our man today, or my man today, the whirling.
[00:17:59] Host: Yeah. This thing around just kind of the contagion on the other side keeps coming through as well though. And it's almost like it's not an external from that space point of view, you were mentioning earlier in terms of the space where the furniture sits in the room.
[00:18:15] It's not that kind of a, a thing. It's more of a kind of, yeah. It's, it's almost like this. Um, This contagious space on the other side of the spectrum. So we're talking about going and spending time with the rocks on these ancient pilgrimages or in Siberia, or, you know, spending time with a guru or whatever it may be, or even just, you know, um, finding spaces in our lives that, that feels most alive, whatever, even if it's just looking at a fire and, and, and having that yes.
[00:18:47] In inner kind of experience of, of what's going on, seemingly from the outer realms. And then on the other side of that, it seems, it seems like this is happening all the time, whether we are conscious of it or not in, in many different ways. And it's almost like a, it's like a development of some kind of a, um, I don't know, it's hard to even just put words around it.
[00:19:08] It's like trying to put the words around the experience of the moon and that's why maybe the finger was pointed in that direction. So it's, it's hard to do that, but there's something around the other side of it that keeps coming up and it's, and it's almost what I, I, I'm trying to just kind of feel into what, what it's speaking to, or what's speaking through me in this moment and it's something around, um, not having to physically go and move out of a certain space, but it's, it's kind of what you were sharing earlier around.
[00:19:40] Allowing that the other kind of space, the other side of the spectrum to be more alive and sit in that, within that external space, but then also a moving in and out of that external space. So it's not too overwhelming. Like that still seems like it there's like a vibration that needs to take place. You can't just be sitting underneath that grill and burning, you know what I mean?
[00:20:02] There needs to be some kind of a dance going on. There is a movement happening and it seems like there's just this and talking about this whole idea of how we began with the monastery. And, and there, there is this idea of, I think we're kind of dancing around the same kind of space right now, but it it's, it's a deepening process I can feel.
[00:20:20] And, and there is something about back and forth. Um, especially I've looked at it. If, if you think of, in terms of nature, which is such a strange word nature, you know, we need to go into nature, but, um, just, just this idea of like, if you, if you live in an kind of urban environment time in nature, Time in nature going kind of back and forth, um, regularly, it, it does something, you know, if you were to spend too much time in a city environment that would do something else, whether you know it or not.
[00:20:51] And if you were to spend three months in the forest of the Amazon or the, yeah, the Amazon rain forest that would do something completely different. And, um, but then there would still be a calling of kind of an integration of, of, of your life and, and making kind of, yeah. Like you can, you can walk around the streets of the city and you can relate to the trees.
[00:21:11] That are, that are kind of growing in the botanical gardens or, you know, next to the street posts, but it's not the same as going to the jungle and being in the jungle might not be, you know, might not work all of the time because you do have a child or, um, a wife or a family, or a certain kind of career that you, that you really, you know, feels right for you to be in at that time or whatever it might be.
[00:21:35] You do have a certain setup in your unique life. So there is this kind of back and forth that's coming up for me. And maybe that's just something to do with my unique life, because it would be different from everyone, for everyone. If I grew up in the Amazon, it would be totally different. I wouldn't have that kind of a feeling or if I grew up somewhere that was maybe on the outskirts of a, of a city, it, it might be different as well, but it's not, I feel like I'm kind of in the depth of things.
[00:21:59] And I think a lot of us might be in that space. So yeah, just in, in terms of that context, there seems to be this. Vibration that's being called forth or this moving back and forth between in order to twirl and, and move move, kind of find that tension point, I guess.
[00:22:19] Guest: Yes. So to, um, the part that I can grab a hold of there to respond to is, is in defense of the literal space or the external space in defense of the earth, the material space in defense of the land, where the song lines are in this, in this glorious continent, then, um, why would one, not, what, what, uh, what's bad about only going to one space?
[00:22:51] You know, it's just like only inhabiting the Amazon, right? That's a bad example. Cause then it feels like it's demonizing the people who live in the I'm about this from modern perspective and I'm using it a mythic sense. The, the reason why the land is so sacred. The reason why the song lines exist. And the reason why all of these different domains must be preserved here is that it's in the land.
[00:23:19] And if you want to meet for side, then you have to get on a boat stale until your two days past being able to see the land. And then if you stand on that boat and you open yourself to being at that point, you can that only then, and there will you experience society. And if you wanna experience aah, then going to the Amazon into the jungle, where there's a thousand different eyes and thing, ears, and there's jungle all around, you know, the glorious single all, all connecting God.
[00:23:57] That is one is found in a desert where there's just one big blue sky, the eternal blue sky. There's this there's a, there's a oneness to it. And inside. That particular space is where our being reverberates. And we have a mono an experience of the monotheism of truth. Whereas inside the jungle, then there's a polytheism of truth.
[00:24:20] God is in the Jaguar and a different God, but you know, the same God, but all the different gods in the snake and in the ground, and then the marsh and all things. So landscape place is important because it embodies the Pantheon, right? The Pantheon within us, it embodies a range of different kinds of beings.
[00:24:42] The ULA is a, I'm gonna try and use modern language. ULA is a, is a machine for generating a particular kind of vibration in human beings. Let's say, if you go Toru, then there's a particular kind of that you experience. And if you go, uh, up Mount Everest, Ooh, there's a different kind of thing. You meet a different God, you resound in a different way, right?
[00:25:12] If you are at the bottom of the ocean, if you're on a boat, if you're in the desert, right. If you're in the cityscape, if you're in the monastery, if you're in a Tibetan monastery, you know, if you're in a Franciscan monastery, each one of those things hums in a different way. And we resound in a different way, soul experiences, another facet of its eternally, faceted gem than it is it, it, it is possessed by a different God.
[00:25:39] And so environment is important. It is contagious. And the diversity of environment is important because it gives us as well. The diversity of the, the many faceted gem that we are, that that's why there were so many gods in the old system is because we have so many facets. And so, and those gods have so many faces because, so do we, and so does soul.
[00:26:04] You know, it's it's in there. And, and yes, there are times when we can go to particular places like the top of the Himalayas or the middle of the deserts in the, you know, in Israel and that we don't perceive lots and lots of facets in that moment. We could just experience
[00:26:24] this sense of just oneness this, this a very particular experience. And that's an experience that can be had. Right. And that, but it's not to be, uh, but I, it shouldn't denigrate. I think all of the other experiences and all of the other gods, Diane ISIS was honored in the past, you know, Sheva is honored and so is Krishna.
[00:26:48] You know, they're very different. Very different. Right. You know, they're all, there's, there's so many faces to the divine in, in, you know, coyote medicine, and you know, the white twins and in the Buffalo, there's this, this kangaroo dreaming and playful streaming. Why are there so many, because each one of those is a finger towards a facet of the moon.
[00:27:12] Each one of those are finger towards a, a, a particular experience that we may have, right. We resound differently. And who wants to choose who, why not resound with all the complexities? You know, like roomy was spinning in that moment to a very particular celestial thing that happened. Whereas if he had of just instantly being transported to ULA, he might, he probably wouldn't have spun like that.
[00:27:39] He may have just, ah, dropped to his knees and kissed the earth and uttered the particular, a kind of a song. Right. And then instead of the whirling, dervishes would have the kneeling ations LA LA LA LA LA LA LA. You know, he, he would've evoked something different in him because there is a different God or a different facet of soul in ULA than there is in the, the church, the, the mosque bells I've really got that one wrong.
[00:28:05] Didn't I, the church bells that roomy was dancing to . Yeah.
[00:28:09] Host: Yeah. Well, I think what you're saying, there's something that's coming up for me around this, allowing for whatever the emergence of that, whatever God may be there in that present moment to come up and be there without trying to, I guess, manufacture what you think that God should look like or be like yes.
[00:28:27] Guest: And that experience that facet of soul yourself. Yeah. Being what should, what should it be? Should it always just be monastic and yoga and the mountaintop, you know, cause that's what that tradition that I'm in, in touch with is, is that the highest experience must be like this. Ooh, that's the posture of the highest experience?
[00:28:46] No, yoga has lots of postures, lots of USS for a reason because in each one of those USS, which it's not gymnastics, obviously yoga's not about that. And it's not also just to get you flexible so that then you can sit and do that. The one thing I disagree, I disagree on that. It's that in each one of those postures, one experiences oneself in a different way.
[00:29:09] And yoga is an outgrowth of the, the ancient shamanic techniques of, of which, uh, Tai Chi is another. And it says let's stop. Let's, let's adopt an external posture, like the sign of bear. See how you feel when you do bear. Now let's adopt an external posture of Manti. What happens when you do Manti or when you do bear.
[00:29:40] Right. Put your body in those positions. What happens when you do torts? We do tos, we adopt and we must move like tortes. So in your, in, in Tai Chi, there could, or in a martial art, there could be like, uh, you know, particular kind of tiger styles, right? That are based upon the movement of the tiger. And there could be other styles that are based upon sort of the movement of the monkey, right?
[00:30:01] Like a cap or a kind of thing. And we must move ourselves, become adept at a range of those positions inside the triangle pose inside the, the, the down the dog pose inside the Cobra pose, right. We imitate the external posture of a animal God, an animal that is embodying an archetypal force because for our hunter gatherer and shamanic ancestors, they were primary archetypes for the energies of the world, bear and, and Cobra, you know, And dog and you know, all of those things, we, we, we imitate that in an external form.
[00:30:41] Right? Okay. So do that. And we get in there, then feel who you are, and that will navigate you towards the internal experience of that. So adopt now for me, the position of the defeated man, put your shoulders forward, you know, and cast your gaze down, or look up a little bit and now put your shoulders back deep in the diaphragm, chest out, chin in and head straight.
[00:31:11] See the difference that that yoga does in the experience that you have of your soul. Are you the defeated man or are you the triumphant warrior? The answer is both. yeah, this is just check it out, check it out, check it, check
[00:31:27] Host: him all out. And, and like maybe, maybe play around with that as well. Like there's this, this is like, What's coming up for me is this, um, uh, intentional representational spell casting, you know, and that can happen not only by embodying these poses of the body, but also through our words and our, and through our different types of postures within life, which I think is a really interesting thing.
[00:31:53] And I'm, I'm curious, I, I, that's the magical and
[00:31:56] Guest: AAL tradition. That's what you're speaking about. And they do all the same things and it's Aner, it comes out of shamanism in the same way. And it's, you know, yes, it uses word. It also uses posture and external literal things like a cup or a wander a sword, but they're not really, they need
[00:32:10] Host: to be good, but we don't need to go do those traditions to do that.
[00:32:14] Like, we can do that anymore. This is like probably what you're doing with your, the same with your herbs. When you, when you mix together a concoction, I'm guessing. And like, I've got no idea, but you kind of yeah. What happens in that process? I'm kind of curious in how that, how that all, that, all those realms of representational kind of magic come into what you do.
[00:32:33] This is kind of a curiosity. Well, cause you've got this massive. I feel like I'm in Harry Potter with, you know, the one shop and you've got all these boxes behind you. It's like, which one do I pee? Yeah. You know what I mean?
[00:32:45] Guest: So, I mean, that's all really beautiful and magical looking and we can have our romantic idealization pictures on top, on top.
[00:32:53] That's it's meant to look cause the soulful magical aary our chemical witch is dense. That represents something that, yeah, that's right. Yeah. That's good. But I'm gonna show you my Aldrum now my magical shamanic Aldrum okay. Witch is brew of stuff. Here it is. And it's made in China and it's. It's it's a blender.
[00:33:15] Like it's a fancy grinder. That's pretty cool. Right? Yeah. And it goes, and I have to, and I I'll show you my special also ritual. Uh, I've got these, uh, ritual special stuff that I have to wear when I put it on, you know, like the show and puts on his mask and everything like that. And the mask is what unveils and takes you into that state of being right.
[00:33:37] Put on the, of the Charman or put on the mask of the demon. And so I've got this extra technique of this special here I'm show. And I put this
[00:33:51] modern world in this cauldron. I've marked it with this Tibetan, um, prayer. Ah, so you put
[00:33:58] Host: that on.
[00:34:02] Guest: Yeah. Nice. I put that take off now. And so that I know that when I pick up that cauldron, which I bought on eBay through from China, You know, and of might attend buns, bloody plastic made in China things as well, that sticker and the intention, and knowing that that's a bloody, that is a caldron, but the literal caldron was always a pot, a pot that was sanctified.
[00:34:26] Yeah. A pot that was sanctified, right. For a purpose. I put this, I put the label on there and I tell, and then I remember that as it's going around, because it's on there. It's like those kitchy little plastic things with that have a, a mantra and it turns the prayer wheel automatically. And they say that, uh, and you can get them.
[00:34:46] And so the prayer wheel will just turn itself automatically in, on, in the seven 11, not the front of the shop where the little Nepalese guys working or something like that. Mm-hmm, and as it's turning around, it's like automatically doing the thing that the, the be guys used to do and it's generating the prayers on and it's doing it there.
[00:35:02] Right. And they buy it and they stick it on. Well, when my grinder is going around, because I consecrated it. And dedicated it towards this space after buying it on eBay from China. And it's got that little sticker on then it's as though it was also performing that magic, every turn of those blades in an is an on money, put home every turn of those blades.
[00:35:24] And so here in this very UN romanticized, plastic modernity, industrial plugin, electricity, you know, I I've got all the beautiful things as well, but I just wanted to pop the bubble and give you the, the, the behind the scenes of like, how does one yeah. Perform the magic or the alchemy of taking, taking the wasteland.
[00:35:50] Cause that's the wasteland right here, but now it's not. It's part of my ritual facing north taking my menstrual blood, putting it across my nose. It's. And that is a part of the ritual as I approach my Coran, Chinese eBay noisy. That's
[00:36:10] Host: very interesting. So you are actually representing the idea of the representation.
[00:36:14] That's that's pretty fascinating cuz you're you're it was
[00:36:17] Guest: always thus it's alwa it always was, it was never the literal, it was never, never the pot. It was never the wand. It was never the signpost. It was never literally what roomy said. It was never literally the story in the Bible. All of those things were always incantation representations.
[00:36:39] They were consecrated. Right. And as soon as you just get stuck in the, you know, if there would be someone listening and say, cool, uh, what brand, what brand is that? Yeah. What brand does Jimmy wear? There? It is people brand. You can go and buy it and you too can be spiritual and you can put this on. You know, devoid of all the rest of the things, and you can sit at home with your spiritual Charman thing and you can go and do healings where these things on your ears is this that's what happens, thinking up
[00:37:07] Host: with healing and the medicine of life.
[00:37:09] I've heard, you kind of use that phrase and all these different, like, like what, what are the medicines needed to begin to stitch up this kind of the fragmented minds of our, you know, our, our existence. Yes. So, so is that part of the medicine that itself, that idea
[00:37:24] Guest: itself? It is the medicine. Yeah, it is the medicine that's right.
[00:37:27] Is that, is that, um, uh, the, the, the, the, the primary disease that we suffer from, the lack of ease that we suffer from in the modern world is, um, is not, you know, metabolic syndrome with obesity and cardiac illness and, you know, diabetes and those sorts of things. The primary. This disease that causes our unhealthy lifestyle practices.
[00:37:53] And all of those things is this sense of fragmentation, the soul fragmentation, which is what the shamans would say. It's like, this is the basic illness and the driver of illness is a fragmented soul. And so we live inside the narrative that I'm sharing with you here. We, the reason why we are ill at ease is because we are living inside a discordant song.
[00:38:15] We're living inside a story, an unhealthy story. And by unhealthy story, I mean, uh, a, like an unhealthy pair of shoes. What's an unhealthy pair of shoes, which is the size of shoes. That is an unhealthy size of shoes. Just like a size of shoes. That's not appropriate to our needs and that doesn't fit us. And so the story that we are living in right now, including I believe the new age story mm-hmm is an unhealthy pair of shoes that doesn't quite fit.
[00:38:45] And it certainly chaffed me and gave me blisters. And, you know, I wore that pair of shoes and it took me around the world. So bless, bless the new age, even though I, I bitch about it. Uh, you know, like it was a necessary part of my trip through the wasteland. The wasteland of the new age, in the same way that the, the, the, the nights of the round table must quest through the darkness of the forest.
[00:39:07] It's not that they should find a, who should have been better. If they had have found the grail instantly, you don't find the grail instantly. You require a wasteland or a dark forest in order to find the grail you have. And how do you get into the dark forest? So let's shift from wasteland to dark forest.
[00:39:24] How do you get into the dark forest? Well, every night must enter the dark forest at the place that is, seems most tangled and most rich in bris and darkest and scariest to them. That is how you get into the dark forest when you're really inside there, because the grail, the moon, the Samari, the chin know, God, there's so many images for this, but here that the grail that, that holds the moon can only be, be held in when one leaves the ordinary world behind.
[00:39:58] Let's leave the ordinary well behind. And that is also the leading of the, of those goggles behind, right. So we go into the darkness, right? So coming back to your question of like what the PRI the primary disease and, and, and how do we go about it? Like what, what what's, how is this relevant to all of this?
[00:40:14] The primary disease is living inside an unhealthy story. We must descend into the wasteland deeply further into the belly of the beast. We must fall down the, well, we must be swallowed by the whale. We must be torn like a Cyrus limb from limb, from limb and scattered across the Nile. We must go into a forest until we are surrounded by the, by thorns.
[00:40:39] We dunno which way is up or down. And we're in the blacker than the blackest black. That is where you perceive the moon. That's what a whole bunch of our stories are telling us that our dissent into charm our dissent into, in tragedy and pain, our dissent into the belly of the beast is a necessary part of the journey because only when it gets to that dark night of the soul, can you actually behold the moon?
[00:41:11] That is where the grail will be found. And so that's a soulful narrative that says, doesn't say one must get past all of these things, push them to one side that all this stuff is chat it's, it's a trap, you know, it's it's, it's you leave it to one side. This is a narrative that says. No, it's all soul, it's all sacred.
[00:41:32] And so is your heartache. And so is your pain. And so is the father that abandoned you or the mother that abused you. They are what lead you. And so is your, so are your hemorroids and so is your diabetes. So is your obesity, so is your histamine intolerance? Those things are the dark Braly areas of the forest.
[00:41:53] And that's why my work in health, I've gotten, uh, comfortable with the, the, the, the practical details of dealing with heart attacks and hemorrhoid hits. And, you know, I mean, that sort of stuff, right? The physical stuff, I I've got the tools, but in order for it to be effective, I need to be able to lead, to get rid of the, the primary disease.
[00:42:16] I need to be able to help people to, rather than just say, ah, make it go away. I've come to you to make my anxiety, go away, give me a magic pill. So my anxiety goes. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Give me a magic pill. So my trauma goes away and my hurt and my heartache and my melancholy goes away. No, no, no, no, no.
[00:42:38] That's where we go in. And so roomy, the wound is what, what lets the light in is one of roomy sayings around that. Right? And so we go in that's the way the brambles are thickest and darkest. And we go in through there. It's a wa it's a sacred wound. It's a holy dark forest. And yes, it feels like a wasteland.
[00:42:57] At times when we traverse it, we must be lost at sea. We must be like the ancient Mariner. We must, ah, we must be worn down. We must leave the old world behind the hero. Must go on that journey. And that journey involves a dissent, a Catabasis a destruction, a a, a movement into the underworld, right into the underworld, into the dark, into the shadows, a leaving behind of the known a leaving behind of the known.
[00:43:22] And so dis disease is not something to be vanquished. But it is something to be embraced in the same way. That tragedy is not something to be shunned, but to see that it is, we live in a world that is a tragic comedy. Like there's, there's a laughing budder and there's a weeping Buder. You know, that's why that the masts of drama and that tragedy is like the, the, the boatman that guides us down the river sticks tragedy is tragedy is important.
[00:43:52] Tragedy is sacred, which parent would not, would want to keep their child in a bubble so that they never lost. They never failed. They never got their heart broken. They never missed out on a job opportunity. They just had all the money they need. And every opportunity from day one, ah, go to that, to your children, really what a terrible wish for your children, that they would never be hurt, that they would never lose that they would never fail, that they would never be disappointed.
[00:44:21] They would never graze their name. What a terrible, terrible wish. For a parent to have to a child that's not, that's the wrong wish. We don't wish for them to avoid those things in the world. We wish for them to be strong and resilient and brave that they may be forged by them. You know, forged in the fire, into steel, forged on the wheel, like into a virus forged by those experiences.
[00:44:46] We don't want our children shattered, but we also don't wanna keep them away from all of that sort of stuff. So the disease, your hemorrhoids, your infertility, the next person's, uh, reflux, those things are gateways and an embodied gateway into how did you live this into being, what is the feeling behind it?
[00:45:08] How can this lead you. Out of the village where you were out of the waste, the section of the wasteland, that you were the unproductive part of, just like, like this and leads you into the forest where suddenly it's not a rat wheel anymore. It's just, you don't know which way up and which way down finally, when you don't know what, which way is up and which way is down and we've left the disease, the unhealthy story of our cracked lens behind in that moment, your cup is empty.
[00:45:41] That's when the old stories that I have read, tell us the old stories that speak on behalf of soul. Tell us that that's where the grail is to be found. That's where the that's where those fingers are pointing. And they say, it's there, it's in the world. It's in your life. It's in the joys, it's in the loves, but it's also in the pains and tragedies it's in there.
[00:46:05] And it's definitely in your heart disease. And you're dandruff as well. I'm telling you that , it's in all of those things. And so we use them to go through not to go past, not vanquish into that dark to experience strongly the, for it to come's like pulling, don't just wanna make it go away. We wanna draw it out.
[00:46:32] I let the dis extra, but I'm not lovable. Ah, but if people see me, they're gonna see what a fucking fraud I am. And ah, I don't really know what I'm doing. Ah, you don't, it's true. you dunno what you're doing and let me let feel that unlovable feel the UN like you P us the boil. Let's not try and like run away from that, go through that, hold it and embrace it, sweat it out.
[00:46:56] It's like a sun. Let's put those hooks through your heart and chat whilst it, you know, whilst it comes through. And so feel that disease feel that pain and that tragedy. In my work I believe is, uh, when that's paired with a practical support of the body, through the medicines and techniques that are necessary, that's what can make medicine transformative.
[00:47:21] And so when we are talking about soul, then what I'm doing in other ways, as someone that walks the medicine path, I could just, everything I've just said could be talking about health because health is a state of wholeness. And for me, health is not the absence of disease, but the raging presence of soul health is not the absence of disease, but the raging presence of soul.
[00:47:40] And so what we're looking for a healthy world, a healthy culture, a healthy relationship, a healthy to be healthy is not just to not have hemorrhoids or Dandra, that's not it right. It's to experience soul, to experience that connectivity, where we are part of something faster that is mysterious, but of which we are spinning and resounding within medicine.
[00:48:06] Wow.
[00:48:09] Host: left me a little speechless there, Jimmy. That's quite beautiful. Oh,
[00:48:13] Guest: having that great. I'm really, I'm really glad. Yeah, yeah.
[00:48:18] Host: Yeah. Having that connection with what you do in the world is quite a beautiful thing that, that deep kind of meaning behind it. And yes. And sharing that with people, having that kind of, you know, sharing that new framing with people that come to you for quick fixes or come to you for, and it it's, it's totally, it's a totally normal thing.
[00:48:40] Like of course, like how do I, like, I've got this pain here. How do I fix this? What do you have for me? Like, you've got all these boxes. Give like, put something together, make me a recipe,
[00:48:50] Guest: please. Totally. And if I didn't have the boxes, then you know, they wouldn't come. And that makes sense. And I, and I, and I've got the tricks and there are people that I can fix their back sometimes without them doing anything, without them changing it anyway.
[00:49:03] And they're just like, oh, I slipped and did this thing lie down and I will fix you. And I put my elbow in their ass and hallelujah, they get off and they get, um, as in their Perfors is what I meant. Um, and then, but most of the time, most of the time lasting medicine doesn't work like that. Yeah. Most of the time, medicine's not like that.
[00:49:22] Most of the time we eat and breathe, breathe, and live and sleep and choose our dis disease into being yeah. You know, diabetes just didn't fall from the sky and neither did the Dandra for the peptic ulcers or the addiction to the, you know, all the. We did all that. And that doesn't, it means we can't, we can't medicate your way out of a place, a space that you have lived and breathed and wept and chosen and eaten your way into you must live and breathe and weep and chose and eat your way out of it.
[00:49:52] But I can give you the medicines that will give you the strength, like the magic beans in your, in your pocket, that will make it easier. That will will ferry you there down the river. She's connecting
[00:50:02] Host: time, give you the sense
[00:50:02] Guest: of, yeah. The strength, you know, that's what I do is support people on their journey and yes, the things I do have to help, they have to make a difference.
[00:50:13] They have to work. They have to be convincing. I have, you know, all that stuff. Yes, it, it does. But that only goes so far if I can't get them to go on the journey. And the reason why I am generally booked out is because I refuse to do what people ask. And I insist upon their health in the LA with a capital H which, which is the raging presence of.
[00:50:35] So whatever they come with, I want to help them with that thing. Cause if not, I, you know, I, I haven't helped, you know, but to help them with that thing, I want to return to them is something so much more precious to give them the moon, you know, to, to, for him, to set them, make sure that they're on the path of, of that, that, that I am as well.
[00:50:53] Not that I'm in the mountain top mean they're just mountaintop, beholding the moon at all moments and all that's not the myth that I'm sharing or projecting about myself. Um, but that they, that they, they can come towards this state that they're really craving because their, their fundamental lack of ease, your fundamental lack of ease.
[00:51:11] And my fundamental lack, lack of ease is not physiological. It's something much deeper than that. And it's not just mental or emotional either. It's something deeper than mental and emotional. And that's why we need words like soul and spirit to be able to see what, what encompasses the physical and mental and emotional.
[00:51:31] What is the system of systems. What's the highest thing that we can. And so we need these other languages to say your, your disease, your dis disease, and our culture's dis disease exists at such a deep place at such a profoundly deep place is that we look at the world and it is an image of the destruction of soul, the soul scape of, uh, of the wasteland that we experience inside ourselves that we have experienced for hundreds of years.
[00:51:58] That's another representation going on. It's a representation of that. Wee and we're outraged, but some of grief and outrage, not just for the, but for the destruction of the can't, that won't be solved with solar power, right? We can't solve the ecological crisis. Ecologically. We can't solve the ecological crisis just economically because we can't solve the economic crisis, uh, without solving the cultural crisis without solving, you know, the political crisis.
[00:52:26] And so underneath all those crises, What's the crisis of crisis. When our education system, our healthcare system, our ecological system, our military systems, our political systems and our community structures, they're all in crisis. So then we say, oh yes, of course, this is the way that we've spoken about this for thousands of years.
[00:52:43] You know, this is, this is what happens when the, when we've upset a God or the gods. There's a crisis that is, that is below it all, a deep crisis. It's very hard to speak of. So we say to God, you know, or a God, I don't believe in any of those gods in a literal sense, it's the language that I'm using, right?
[00:52:59] We say soul, the, the deepest crisis that we are facing as a species is a crisis of soul. It's a crisis, the crisis of crises. It's something that, that it's the meaning making. That's what it's called by some people who don't wanna use the S word, the meaning making crisis, the crisis that sits below all of those and at an individual level, the crisis that sits below your heartache, your anxiety, your hemorrhoids, and your infertility.
[00:53:27] That crisis is also a crisis of soul. And the crisis that sits below your personal crisis of soul is also informed by our cultural crisis of soul. So we cannot heal our soul and our soul, a in isolation from the wounded world in which we inhabit. That's why the hero's journey must descend into the underworld and bring back spiritual gifts to the C to the world.
[00:53:53] Is that our, our, how can we expect to be spiritually or, or medically healthy in an unhealthy culture and an unhealthy ecosystem? We can't. We can only expect that because we are like, well, there's the world. And then there's me, there's culture with all those bad people over there with the CEOs and the businesses.
[00:54:15] And then there's me. Who's good and spiritual. And if I, me and my friends were in charge of the world, it would be much more functional because we got that. That's the reason why we expect that I can be a liver cell in a toxic liver, you know, in, uh, a body that exists inside at a concentration camp, but I should be healthy.
[00:54:34] I should be me. I'm gonna do all the right things and fix myself. I wanna be a healthy liver cell. How, what an unhealthy idea, but that is possible or desirable or that that's what one should be striving for. One should always be striving for the health of the, all the health of the community, the health, you know, that, that one's doing that.
[00:54:54] So that's, what's, one's doing at the sweat dance. You're bringing your prayers and your sweating in your, at the, at the, in a sauna, in the sweat lodge, you know, you're doing it for. You're sick mother. You're doing it for the community. You're doing it for the earth. You're suffering for the earth. You're offering for the earth.
[00:55:13] Right. And you're offering for, to change the language for Krishna you're. There you are ostentation. You are. You're doing it for Krishna. You're cooking for Krishna. I'm not cooking for myself. I'm cooking for Krisna. I'm cooking for Christ. There's, I'm not religious in any of those traditions, but though they, they, they're doing something similar.
[00:55:33] They're saying soul, the moon, uh, all my relations, sick grandmothers and the, and the village. Aah, Krishna baby Krisha. I'm offering up this, my own sickness, my own joys, my own wealth, my own spiritual yearnings towards the larger thing of which I am a part of. And what do I get in return for offering my sickness and my success towards the larger thing that I am a part of.
[00:56:00] Then I get to experience myself as being a lot, part of something larger and mysterious. And only when I experienced myself as being a part of something larger and mysterious can. I said, can I say to myself with my hand on my heart, that I am in a state of health,
[00:56:22] Host: Yeah. Wow. So much that you just shared there. And, and I really appreciate, I really appreciate all of this and it makes total sense. Um, so thank you. It makes sense for us to be here in so many magical ways, even the way I initially came across your sharings with, um, you were making this batch of mug wat, and I thought I'd make my first mug tea just to kind, um, it's
[00:56:44] Guest: been it's really, that was a while ago.
[00:56:46] I haven't made a batch of mug wat for a little while, so it must have been a while ago.
[00:56:49] Host: It was a little bit ago. Yeah. And it really kind of yeah. Caught my attention, um, and opened, opened this beautiful window. Um, but I was just kind of wondering I'm in this space at the moment, and I know you've been through studyings of sports, sports, injury, and Shasu, and you know, the ING thing and all these other elements of Chinese medicine incorporating what you do.
[00:57:11] I'm at this space where I'm I'm I feel really like there's a rhythm going on that everything feels really. Like the rhythm is right. It feels really right. I don't know a better way of putting it, but there is something calling me to deepen my education, but there's also this, this question and I thought you'd be the perfect person to ask this question of.
[00:57:33] Like I can be of service now, right now I'm trying to figure out how to be best. I'm kind of just lying there and like, take me and use me as you will. But I don't really know where, where that, where that's pointing aside from where I'm ready, trotting, but it's just, something feels like there's a deepening that needs to take place.
[00:57:49] And you mentioned poetry earlier. I wanted to go into that space and there's all these other little glimmers of excitement that are kind of catching my attention. I can see that could be quite useful to add into the collective kind of emergence. But for me, there's a sense of not really knowing. What that looks like and being okay with the not knowing, but there's also this deepening, this, this question of education.
[00:58:11] And I wanted to know cuz there, there is, I guess that's partly something I'm worried about. Like the bandwidth being reduced of the rhythm that's currently flowing and to be, you know, put into this other place that will ultimately increase the potency, um, or the, or the amplification of that, of that rhythm or vibration.
[00:58:29] But yes, there's something that it takes away in the temporary moment. Yeah. Just, just because of that and things just started flowing. So it's like, ah, , you know, like
[00:58:41] Guest: I wanted to hear what you thought. I think that it's possible that, um, that, um, that, that can be reframed very, very easily. That will give you the space to avoid the pitfalls, which I think your fears are healthy.
[00:58:55] And right. Like I said before, of anyone coming into a particular tradition, they're like, ah, I wanna study homeopathy. It's like, that's great. Homeopathy is amazing, wonderful study homeopathy it, you know, but, uh, it's a cult, you know, and it's one little facet of medicine and medicine's March large. Pathy, you know, like, and so, you know, you can, you can, you can follow that, but try, don't get too caught in it.
[00:59:24] You know, don't get too stuck in it. And so when there's education, it, it like you hear education and our images of education are our experience of education, which is I am an empty cup and they will pour it in the teachers. And the all whys, knowing ones will pour stuff into me. You're like, oh, who's gonna pour what into me.
[00:59:42] It's it can, what's the difference between education and brainwashing and propaganda. Isn't there
[00:59:45] Host: an increased power of devotion in a, in a sense like you devote to one, and I know there, this is the thing, there's an increased power of devotion. That seems to be the place, but there's also be the case. And there's also this kind of beauty in the different flus of all these different types and, and what they all add in individually.
[01:00:01] So, yeah. Yes. So
[01:00:03] Guest: the, the reframe that I think is that if you lose the word education for a little while and perhaps just say, I want to continue my exploration. Yeah. And you hold it with exploration rather than education, or I'm, I'm, I'm looking for further initiation. Initiation and exploration. And you hold that with your sense of curiosity and your sense of awe.
[01:00:25] Then you can, uh, if it's framed like that, the same experience, just let's say you're gonna go and study gestalt for a little while or something. Yeah. And if you say, oh, I'm gonna get educated in gestalt. Then from the start, you're gonna have to go through it for the entire time that they say, if you drop out after six months, it's a failure and you must take it all on and it sets up and yes, in, in the guru kind of tradition, then all the, you know, you wanna be able to sort of like BDSM, you want to sort of just submit and give and that's and so that they can work.
[01:00:56] You like clay and all that sort of stuff. But in the modern world, that's really the situation for us. And so I would say to explore Al. And with curiosity and to, to seek initiation until ingot until maybe three months, six months, 12 months, 18 months later, like just before you get the piece of paper, then
[01:01:15] Host: use the paper itself though.
[01:01:17] And it's like, don't I, this is maybe an issue. And I know there's a trap in here, but there's like, there's a sense of, I need that paper so that when people ask the questions that people come to you and ask, when they want certain things to fix their illnesses, there's a backing of kind of credibility there.
[01:01:31] But if I, but then there's like, cause I could go off and, you know, read a hundred books on Yong and have my own explorations and, you know, do the same thing with Buddhism. I don't need to go to a university and you spend all this money and spend all this time and all that kind of a thing. And, and yeah, open up to that contagious element.
[01:01:47] But there are, there, there is kind of something to be said about. The paper, but then people get the paper and it's like, I don't even need this. I never use this in my life. And no one even cares about it. So there's this, there's this confusion, I guess, going on. And you've done all this studying and you've done all this exploration.
[01:02:01] Let's reframe it from now on. And it's like, it seems to me, there's a sense of maybe a Mr. Miyagi dynamic. I've, I've never
[01:02:09] Guest: had a guru. I've never found a teacher. I've, I've visited shamans all over the world. I've been to the, you know, all the you've read my bio. I mean, Tibetan medical centers and Mongolian national univer, all the things and Chinese hospitals and the Indian hospitals.
[01:02:25] I went, I all the I've had an amazing amount of experiences, unusual level of experiences. I was blessed with all of that. I've never found someone that I could just, ah, or some tradition or some particular thing that quenched my thirst. For what I was looking for, not, not one at all. And mostly I don't, I didn't even get qualified in any of the things that I've explored.
[01:02:49] I'm just completely unqualified in most of what I do. I did get some pieces of paper and that was necessary for me in medicine and blah, blah, blah. But mostly I've just explored all of those things. And mostly I haven't got what I'm, what I was looking for and what I, what I give, what I'm sharing with you today is the result of, um, of a quest that is a personal quest that has curiosity and soul and adventure and exploration and initiation and contagion within it.
[01:03:21] I have caught these things from mountains and rivers, from Hawks and dingoes, from shamans and cardiac surgeons, the, a whole bunch of different people I've gone and I've just, I've rubbed up. They haven't been able to give me the moon. They haven't been able to give me the moon, but they have still, they, they they've each had their, their, their piece of wisdom and I've, I've tried to get their biome into my buyer.
[01:03:52] You know, I've, I've got some of their culture in me and that it's bred and it's bubbling inside. And so now what I share with you is not yin or Buddhist or chemical or Chinese medicine or naturopathic ORIC, or it's not any of those things. What I'm sharing with you is me is the distilled living exploration of those ideas.
[01:04:21] Right. And I think that's what you're looking for, because that's the thing that you should be looking for. , you're looking for the moon. You're looking for that. You're looking for that. And so in exploring that, then it has to be exploring, I would say,
[01:04:33] Host: thank you for your participation. In this episode of theri podcast, I'll leave links on our beautiful guest in the show notes section on the website, where you can check out all their wonderful work and offerings.
[01:04:46] And if you're interested in working one on one with me, feel free to head over to today. dreamer.com and get in touch. Also, if you would like to participate in some group meditation sessions, online that I'm offering for free only to listeners of the show, then please send me an email through the contact form on the website.
[01:05:08] I'll add you to the list and, um, I'll give you all the details to that. And any other upcoming kind of offerings around helping your development in this space? Thank you so much again until next time.