History of Psychedelics and Buddhism (How are they connected?)
Psychedelics and Buddhism have a deep history and connection to each other. Unbeknownst to most people, psychedelics have roots in Buddhism. The ancient use of psychedelics has led to deeper meditation processes and enlightenment. In this episode, Mike Crowley, the author of "Secret Drugs of Buddhism", shares with us the roots of psychedelics as well as his experiences with them.
Show Notes Links:
Learn more at:
https://synergeticpress.com/blog/releases-events/secret-drugs-of-buddhism-by-mike-crowley/
Full Podcast Transcription:
History of Psychedelics and Buddhism (How are they connected?)
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Mike Crowley
[00:00:00] Host: Today's guest is Mike Crowley. And in this episode, we're going to explore the intersection between psychedelics and Buddhism. We're going to look at Mike's research into the secret drugs of Buddhism and different ancient scriptures and what he's uncovered in his work, fascinating exploration. And Mike is a lovely character.
[00:00:26] Unfortunately, I can't actually find the video for this episode that I filmed. So, uh, it's part of, it's going to be quite low quality if you're watching on YouTube. Uh, but if you're listening, it shouldn't really make a difference. Um, yeah, I hope you're going to enjoy the show either way and stay tuned because there's plenty, more good stuff to come through the channel.
[00:00:52] If you haven't already hit the subscribe button. Click the little notification bell. So you don't miss any of that. If you are watching on YouTube. And if you're checking out the show at an audio only channel like Spotify or apple podcasts, then I invite you to leave a review. Let me know what you think about the show and hit subscribe.
[00:01:13] If you're enjoying and getting some value out of the conversations. If you're enjoying the show and you want to take things a little bit further, maybe you want to connect on a deeper level by supporting then the number one way to do that, to support the transmission of these mindful media vibes out into the interconnected sphere of shared space is to join the today dream of tribe.
[00:01:40] You can do that by heading over to patrion.com forward slash today. Dreamer not only that, all that helped me keep the show alive, but it also supports the intention or what the show stats. So I'll give you a bit of a rundown on Mike's background. He was born in Wales in 1948 and in 66, he, uh, started studying with a Tibetan Lama.
[00:02:08] He became an OPA sucker of the lineage in 1970. Mike has lectured at various museums and universities and has been published, uh, 14 times. The journal of archeology consciousness and culture, psychedelic American and psychedelic press UK is also received, uh, the Gordon Wasson award for outstanding contributions to the field of in Theo botany.
[00:02:39] He currently serves on the advisory board of the psychedelic sun, a group of psychedelically inclined Buddhists based in New York and teachers at the Dharma collective in San Francisco. So shall we get into things, Ben? So we won't worry about that.
[00:03:00] Guest: Oh, it suddenly said it's recording just a minute and 10.
[00:03:05] Okay. I've had continuous.
[00:03:06] Host: All right. Well, um, what I usually do for the podcast is I invite the guests and the listeners to have a moment of presence with me and just to kind of take a deep breath in and we can just kind of connect with our breath. It gives, I think it gives people a nice way to pause in the middle of whatever they're doing and also gives us a nice chance to kind of drop into this space together.
[00:03:33] Um, you know, I've just kind of seems like we've both come from kind of a frantic, uh, or semi frantic state of being, or from different kind of, um, like setting up all the audio and everything. So it's nice to just take a moment. So let's have a breath together then, and then we can get into things. So we invite everyone listening through.
[00:03:57] Also just take a moment and close your eyes when you're ready and allow yourself to take your conscious and slow inhaling through the nose, into the belly, as slow as you can taking a moment to pause at the top. I appreciate that space and, uh, environment at the bottom as well.
[00:06:09] whenever you're ready in your own time,
[00:06:15] Guest: feel free to
[00:06:18] Host: synchronize the opening of your eyes with your exhale.
[00:06:23] Guest: And
[00:06:27] Host: we can begin from this, from this space.
[00:06:39] Guest: We should we begin
[00:06:45] Host: feel like this, so many roads we could take Mike with this one. Um, so many facets of your work that interests me and I've got an abundance of questions ready to go. But I guess, yeah, I don't know if it's, if you're open to it, maybe you could share a little bit about, um, well, I find your background quite fascinating and how you came into the, um, you know, how, how this link between ancient traditions and psychedelics came into your, kind of, into your kind of conscious awareness and, and how you kind of began that journey of exploration might be a place to start the conversation.
[00:07:33] If you're open. Oh
[00:07:35] Guest: sure. I discovered Buddhism and psychedelics approximately the same time. And, um, at first I didn't, um, realize that that there was any, um, ancient historical connection. I'd read Alan Watts book, the joyous cosmology in which she described how LSD could be used as a tool with, um, Buddhism in mind.
[00:08:10] But it wasn't until I had an experience, which was in the company of friends and, um, um, people who are mainly. Doing cannabis tincture, which was available for a brief period on the British national health while cannabis was illegal, but it was legal to have cannabis tincture if you were prescribed it.
[00:08:48] And a friend of mine was prescribed, it, it cost 'em six months for a bottle of, um, of Tincher, which a bottle was a pint bottle. And we calculated it to be contain 72, um, full on flat-out experiences. So it was pretty good value for six months. Uh, but I was afraid that I was going to, um, just, um, Like zone out and be completely zombie, like for the entire experience.
[00:09:31] So I took, um, a third, I'd been given a third of a pill, which was an orange sunshine pill, which was available at the time, um, of LSD orange sunshine, LSD made by someone who later became a friend of mine. Um, and, uh, so I don't know a third of a tab of LSD, which turned out to be a well strong enough, um, given his later, uh, disclosures about how strong these tablets were.
[00:10:20] So I, um, I started by standing on the, um, the patio of my friend's house in the country and the home counties, uh, which surround London, there was a Turkey farm next door. The sun had just gone down. And I said to my friend who was standing next to me, I would look at the fireflies. And he said, what fireflies, as he said, what fireflies, the pints of light, which, uh, had revealed themselves to me, traced an intricate pattern of network across the sky.
[00:11:04] And I said, oh, uh, nevermind. And I went and sat down in the living room to listen to box out of the few, which was playing on my friend's Hi-Fi systems. And I closed my eyes and to my surprise, I witnessed and what seemed to be three entirely new dimensions that is to say, uh, the dimension of time was the same as normal, but the dimensions of space had been replaced by completely other dimensions of space.
[00:11:51] Um, these seem to be at right angles to normal. They, our normal quotidian experiences of left right up, down forward backward. And this new space was filled with regularly arranged spheres of. Completely limpid crystal. They were absolutely transparent. And each crystal reflected every other crystal in the array.
[00:12:38] Not only that, but the entire being of each crystal was only it's reflection of every other crystal in the array. In other words, there's entire array depended on its entirety for every portion of it to exist. And I want this in rapt attention for, oh, I don't know. Um, a minute, a half an hour, essentially.
[00:13:15] I dunno. It was time was irrelevant to me. And although I say it was. Transpiring of the usual rate. Um, we were no longer bound by the experience of time. And, um, so having experienced this, I was, I was immensely impressed. Oh, I should say that at the same time, each crystal was a wave packet and it was modulating by the waves and every other wave packet in the, this universe.
[00:14:00] So I was, um, I was seeing the crystals as particles, but, um, I was also aware of their wave nature at the same time. Now some months after this,
[00:14:24] I read a book called the, the Buddhist theory of totality by gamma CC Chang. And he described the, um, th the phenomenon or the experience known as the Indra's net. And, um, he described it as, um, an experience of interpenetration, which was, um, pointed out by the founder of the Avatamsaka school of Buddhism in medieval, China, which became the Kagan school of Japan.
[00:15:11] And. Not only that, did he, not only did, uh, um, to Shung, I think his name was, uh, describe what I had already seen, but he mentioned that it was described in greater detail in the other towns across Sutra, which of course I had to look up and I was astonished that, um, somebody centuries ago, centuries before my experience can explain and describe my experience in my new detail.
[00:15:56] He didn't mention the wave particle duality. Cause I, uh, uh, I, I, uh, believes that a wave package wasn't a part of, um, maybe evil Chinese vocabulary. But apart from that, it was identical to what I've seen. And I realized that, that there were one or two explanations of this either. I had found a backdoor into, um, a profound Buddhist state that backdoor consisting of the, um, the combined use of a teaspoon of a cannabis tincture and a third or a tablet of LSD or the medieval Buddhists of China.
[00:16:54] How do you use this substance? Also? They had used, um, not necessarily LSD, but perhaps the mushrooms or, um, uh, some other psychedelic either way. Whichever of these two, uh, explanations was, uh, the, the, the correct one. I, uh, I found that this confirmed my use of psychedelics as a tool to, to, um, reach various Buddhist Heights and continue to do, take LSD for, uh, um, for this purpose.
[00:17:42] And, uh, I decided to keep on meditating, uh, but to occasionally, uh, adjust to my, uh, uh, My meditation's if you like by, uh, the application of LSD and occasionally psilocybin mushrooms. Uh, so that's basically, uh, what confirmed my, my use of psychedelics. And, um, as I, as I, um, had more experience with Buddhism at this point, I had only, uh, officially become a Buddhist a few months before, but over the following years, I found that there were more and more evidences of psychedelic use and.
[00:18:46] Eventually, I was telling a friend of mine about this in the 1990s about the various bits of evidence I'd picked up. And he said, you should write a book about this. Well, I did, I did. And it took me 25 years to get it all down on paper. And, um, that was my book secret drugs of Buddhism. Of course I have, um, various initiations or empowerment, um, into certain debt is, and there are parts of those initiations which seem to be about psychedelic mushrooms.
[00:19:28] I would love to discuss this with anyone who has had the, uh, the body Mandela of chakra, Samara empowerment, according to the tradition of Lupa. Um, but as yet I've found no one with that qualification. And so I am bound to secrecy as to what these, um, these intimations may have been.
[00:20:00] Host: It'd be very interesting to be a fly on the wall and during that discussion.
[00:20:05] Guest: Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure it would. Um, but, and as I'm, I'm bound to secrecy about the, uh, the initiation, um, it has to remain secret until I find someone who has also undergone the same initiation. Yeah. So that was, that was basically how it came about that I put two and two together.
[00:20:29] Host: And you were saying that this was kind of during the initial stages of your Buddhist practice or journey into that exploration and, and, and now you're, uh, you're a Lama if I'm correct.
[00:20:42] Guest: Yeah, there there's happened in 1970 the same year that I took refuge from my teacher and. In 19 18 9 January, the first, 1989, I became a llama, uh, was, um, uh, ordained by the very same teacher. And, um, he's still alive. I'm still with him. And I saw him for a couple of years ago in England, Norway, he lives. Um, and, um, but now I'm, I'm officially, uh, at his level, I'm a Lama.
[00:21:28] And, um, I can tell people how to meditate and, uh, uh, tell people, um, where various symbols mean and what have you. So, um,
[00:21:42] Host: how would you say the, the S the psychedelic experiences inform the process or that journey from those early days through to. Um, becoming alarmer and beyond,
[00:21:54] Guest: um,
[00:21:58] it's difficult to, to, um, just sum it up. Yeah. And that, um, there are so many different psychedelic experiences. There are. Um, and possibly as many as the, the number of times you've taken the psychedelic, um, I would say, and that all in all, it helps you, um, see the nature of mind. You could explain the. The behavior of mind as being like a television set or a cinema screen, um, you can see dramas and comedies and thrillers and horror films, but throughout all these, um, experiences, it's all on the same screen, you have to realize that all these experiences are just experiences.
[00:23:13] Um, meanwhile, you're watching colored points of light on a screen. Um, it's if it's, if we're talking about television, that's still the same television. It's the same screen as it was when you, you first turned it on when it's the same, when you turn it off. They, um, the, the pictures which appear on it, um, are brief transitory and, um,
[00:23:49] they're there they're affects their, um, the emotions, which they evoke as similarly brief and, uh, and very down. Um, and someone, um, LSD helps you to witness the, the nature of mind itself to see the nature of the screen, uh, to use the analogy.
[00:24:16] Host: It just seems as though, you know, Out of those two options that you gave earlier.
[00:24:22] If the, uh, drugs of ancient times we used to reach these states, if that is the case, then it seems as though, uh, the psychedelics would provide a, uh, this is yeah. Uh, one way of putting it, but like an acceleration of that process, or even, or even an opening that couldn't be obtained otherwise, seemingly um, Do you have any thoughts on that?
[00:24:49] Or do you feel like it's more supportive or yeah, that's kind of,
[00:24:55] Guest: yeah. Well, I have thought about this and I've thought that, um, whether it does or does not, it doesn't really matter. This there's immense animal, which is just impinged on our consciousness. This is my cat. It was nice to be part of everything that I
[00:25:17] Host: do there.
[00:25:17] We met last time you were saying that he doesn't leave your side.
[00:25:21] Guest: No, he doesn't. He doesn't. He was a, and he's jealous of you now. So, um, yeah, so it's, um, it, this is a similar question to the question I've been asked many times is how would you, uh, uh, proceeded with Buddhism? If you hadn't taken psychedelic.
[00:25:45] I've no idea. I did take psychedelics. So I can't really put myself in any position where I didn't
[00:25:56] Host: would you have proceeded differently knowing that, um, kind of, um, knowing what, you know now through the experience of taking the psych of Alex?
[00:26:07] Guest: I have no idea who knows that. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Who knows?
[00:26:13] Yeah.
[00:26:14] Host: Yeah. It's interesting. So, um, this idea of, and this is probably another question you've been asked, uh, probably I've been asked quite a few times and it's just something I want to cover. Cause I wanted to just get an kind of, it just seems like an obvious thing to tick off before we kind of go a little bit deeper in one direction or another, but the fifth precept and the idea of, um, clouding the mind, um, You know, obviously depends on your perspective of the psychedelic experience and whether that's clouding or really clearing in a sense, based on what you're saying, it seems like the latter.
[00:26:52] Um, but how do you, I
[00:26:53] Guest: would definitely say the latter and, um, uh, two people who put this question to me, I asked them, well, are you a Buddhist? Did you take this precept? You don't have to take that precept to be a Buddhist. You don't have to take any precepts. You know, you don't have to vow not to kill, not to lie, not to steal, not to commit sexual adultery and not to drink alcohol, which is what I did.
[00:27:23] I took all this. It did not say you don't take drugs, which will cloud the mind. It said you will not drink alcohol. In fact, it was more specific than that. It was in Tibet, none. It said you won't drink Chan Chung being Tibetan beer. I thought, well, that's an easy one to keep. And so anyway, I did keep that for 20 years until I took the Ning king Yakshi empowerment, which said, you must take the, there are 14 vows, which come with every empowerment and there are slightly different for everyone.
[00:28:09] And for the it said that you will take a small amount of token amount of Amrita every day. Even if it's only alcohol. So, uh, this was, you know, this was a vowel which superseded the earlier vows and, um, and said that you will take alcohol if you treat it as I'm Rita. Um, now admittedly, it was talking about the token amount of alcohol, as it was talking about token amounts of Amrita, which by the way, I told this to Jim Fadiman, who was delighted with it because he saw this as an ancient precursor of dosing.
[00:29:04] Now the earliest versions of this foul were about alcohol because alcohol was the only, um, Popularly, uh, available psychoactive substance at the time. And the, the, if you read the Vinaya, the monastic rules and be behind every monastic rule, there is a, there's a story or set of stories in the Vinaya, which explain why this isn't, um, to be done, why such and such a rule is put in place.
[00:29:54] And, um, and in the Vinaya, it speaks only of alcohol and, um, There was, um, there, there are no other drugs and it was only after, um, various foreign drugs made their way in, into India, uh, drugs like opium, uh, that, um, the, uh, the fifth preceptors changed to drugs that cloud the mind. So it depends on whether you've taken the vow.
[00:30:37] Um, what vows did you
[00:30:39] Host: take? It's also making that value your own in your own.
[00:30:44] Guest: Well, yes, you, you always interpret the vow in, um, the, the five hours or 10 vows for, you know, there are special vows, but you take for special days, it's always a matter of making them your own and, uh, and, um, taking them seriously.
[00:31:07] Yeah. I don't mean that you should find ways around it. Um, that's not what I'm sure that's not what you meant by making them your own, but, um, it's uh, if you just have a glass of wine with your meals that that could be seen as, um, uh, as an not taking a drug, which clouds the mind does it doesn't cloud the mind.
[00:31:38] Very much at all, however, it still does and it shouldn't be observed. And, um, and so I didn't take alcohol, um, in any form for, for 20 years until I, I took the nigga Yashi empowerment. I did however, take, um, a sip of alcohol, uh, Ghana chakras, which was a, the tantric Trieste where you take, um, oh, you nibble on a bit of meat, usually a slice of salami and, um, and have a sip of wine.
[00:32:17] Um, However, I now believe that this was originally that these meats were not, um, intended to represent actual meat and not the flesh of animals and the readers that five and breeders were never intended to be the five disgusting bodily fluids, which, which are described it as being the 5:00 AM readers.
[00:32:46] So, um, the, the meats by the way are, um, cow, horse, dog, elephant, and human.
[00:32:56] Host: So you think they're like a symbolic representation of sight?
[00:33:00] Guest: I believe that they were symbolically, um, five different psychedelic plants and. And that the, that the five and raters were the, um, substances, which were derived from these, uh, the, from the meats so that they will, they will be T's made from, um, whatever, whatever dog meant.
[00:33:31] That would mean one T whatever human meant, that will be another T and so on. And so the five, the 500 Raiders, if I can remember them correctly, our blood urine, um, pass Pierce and brains bland urine pass, plus yeah. Blood, your impasse person brains. Uh, so I, I really don't believe that, um, medieval Sada cause were able to obtain fresh elephant meat every month.
[00:34:10] Um, although they might find human meat in a, um, uh, that does, Marchena where they sat celebrated the, the, um, the cremation ground, where they, uh, that they were supposed to celebrate it in Sanskrit. It's called smart.
[00:34:33] Host: I found it interesting. How you kind of, the research that must've been done to get, to get into the finer detail of all of this.
[00:34:39] And I think you've, you've kind of, yeah, just from what I've observed of yours, it seems like you've done quite a lot. I actually, speaking of urine, I need to go pee at the moment. So do you mind if we just pause this for like one unit? All right. I'll be back in a moment.
[00:34:58] Guest: Well, okay. I'm ready. It literally is immortality and it's, um, considered.
[00:35:09] And the rig Veda to be a synonym for Soma.
[00:35:14] Host: And what's the Rick
[00:35:14] Guest: Vader, sorry of the rig Veda is the oldest religious scripture in the world. In fact, it was not actually written down until the 19th century. That was that it was written down once in the 14th century for the moguls. Um, but apart from that, it wasn't written down until the British, um, the Raj, which incidentally is not pronounced Raj it's Raj.
[00:35:48] And, uh, they were the, uh, uh, the British rulers of India and they, they said, Hey, well, what's this. Um, stuff that you keep reciting you, Brahmins Brahmins, being the high priest, the priests who are the highest cast of all, they recited the book and had done a ritually since it was first composed, about 2000 BC.
[00:36:22] And so the brave wrote this book down in 13 different places in India. And there were only some very minor differences and the various redactions, which were available in different parts of India, where they spoke different languages. And so. And even though they didn't understand what they were reciting, they will not only reciting Sanskrit, which they were familiar with and did understand they were reciting Vedic Sanskrit, which is an, uh, an older, more archaic form.
[00:37:10] Host: So where does the, where does the mortality fit into the picture?
[00:37:14] Guest: So, uh, I'm Rita is, um, is, uh, as I said, a synonym for Selma Selma was, um, a drink, which kept the gods immortal, uh, which is why it's called Amrita Marie death, tar ness, uh, not deafness or immortality anyway. So. Selma was a, um, a drink which was made during a specific ritual called the Agni, how tra or the yard Genia.
[00:38:00] And, um,
[00:38:06] uh, the rig Veda are a set of a chance which accompany this ritual. Um, the ritual involves a sacrifice of an animal. And then, um, a fire is built on a half of 108 bricks, um, shaped like a bird. And, um, the Somas is pressed out between two stones and, um, either water or milk is added. To, uh, uh, to produce the liquid, the liquid is then strained through sheep's wall into a, um, a large vessel called the San moodra or ocean.
[00:39:00] And it's, um, it's then ladled out from the summer DRA. Uh, first of all, it is offered to the fire and it's offered to, um, basically three gods to, uh, agony, the God of fire Indra, the king of the gods and ruder the God of the, um, the Soma drink itself. Sometimes he is called Soma sometimes we'll draw and, um, Various synonyms are used for poetic purposes for the, uh, the process called, um, elegant variation so that you don't use the same word every time.
[00:39:54] And, uh, saying all the, the, the lines of a hymn, you would call it. So Mo one occasion and read, uh, the next shukra, uh, after that.
[00:40:06] Host: And that's the reason coming to secrecy at all. And there seems to be an element of secrecy. No,
[00:40:12] Guest: it's just, um, it's just the poetic aesthetic, which was part of the, their, um, uh, their culture.
[00:40:22] It's the same in English. If you're writing a letter to someone in English,
[00:40:26] Host: not going to use the same word over and over.
[00:40:28] Guest: Exactly. Yeah, many languages like Tibetans don't have this. They don't have this notion of poetic, um, uh, elegant variation,
[00:40:42] Host: but there was an element to, to, uh, in regards to secrecy in regards to these older, um, ancient texts.
[00:40:51] Right. And that's why it seems like such a difficult task to do the research and piece things together and kind of see where kind of, kind of make little leaps and figure things
[00:41:02] Guest: out. Dale, there were now a Sanskrit I should point out is not a natural language. It was invented about 2000 BC. As a lingua franca to enable the five Aryan tribes is where the tribes that branched off from the prodo Indo Europeans and made it to India.
[00:41:30] And they, they spoke different, um, different dialects, different languages. And it was, um, although they had the same caste system and so on love, basically in this early period, there were three casts, priests, warriors, and farmers, and they decided that the priests needed to be able to communicate in order to perform these rituals together, rituals like the horse, sacrifice the Ash for Meda.
[00:42:12] Host: What's the reason for the sacrifice. Sorry. I'm just curious.
[00:42:15] Guest: I have no idea. It seems that, um, that at some period of human development, people thought that the gods required blood and they, um, they were pleased by, um, the, the killing of animals.
[00:42:36] Host: It seems to me, there is just in life, like there is need of sacrifice sometimes as initiate is an initiation into like a deeper, um, state of being, or, or maybe that's not the best way of putting it as some kind of an initiatory process onto, into another kind of, um,
[00:42:57] Guest: it's often thought to be the case.
[00:42:59] I, I'm not sure of it is though. And, um,
[00:43:03] Host: yeah, like maybe not of an animal, but like to make, it seems like sacrifices allow you to go deeper into something.
[00:43:11] Guest: And a secret drugs of Buddhism. I do tell the story of, um, a Tibetan Vacherie Ana empowerment and initiation, where we are, um, all being given Amrita to drink.
[00:43:35] No, I shouldn't say that in Mo most modern initiations, the unread is either totally innocuous or, um, or like almost innocuous as it is basically just some yellowish liquid with lots of blessings set over it. And
[00:44:01] Host: the psychedelic world.
[00:44:03] Guest: Exactly. Um, and so we were all standing in line waiting to get our, like Palm full of Amrita for, down for us.
[00:44:14] And, um, this guy I'd never met before he said to me, what do they expect us to do? And I was a bit baffled. I just said, well, you know, when people bow and when they do something, you know, and, um, and they said, no, no. I mean, you know, for the initiation, what, what do we have to do? And I was mystified by this time.
[00:44:49] It was totally, uh, At a loss to explain what he was, um, he was on about, but he was thinking of like fraternity initiations, where you get paddled or something. Anyway, they filled his Palm with Amrita and he held it up to me and said, it looks like pee. And I had to admit, it did look like P but, um, and so I said my word, I think, all right, and just three good down and wiped it on my head.
[00:45:26] Like everybody in front of us was doing. And, um, uh, and he was completely like taken aback by this. Uh, of course this was a long time before I realized that you're in, had been used as, um, Rita and. It was quite possibly, um, the urine of the, of the girl who had eaten Amanita must Garcia mushrooms. And, um, that's something else I find out in my book is the dominated a must Garcia mushrooms contain two substances.
[00:46:15] They contain a lot of substances, but there are two specific substances that I consider. One of them is the psychoactive musky mole. And the other is a far less psychoactive, but much more toxic substance called IBA tannic acid. Now it is very possible that you can eat Amanita Galleria mushrooms and that in your body.
[00:46:49] Your liver will convert a lot of the EBOT tannic acid, not all, but a lot of it into musky malls, um, by decarboxylation. And when you drink your own urine after eating the mushroom, uh, you get a double dose or even more than double a dose of the psychoactive substance. Now, um, this may have been what, um, gum Popa described when, um, he gave, um, Milarepa, a block of tea and a, um, a made tea with it.
[00:47:37] And just before he served it, he said, uh, Let's add some spice to it and pissed in the pot of tea. So this
[00:47:47] Host: happened in the story
[00:47:49] Guest: or this happened in a supposedly in real life. Um, and, uh, the encounter of Gamba who founded the, the card, you lineage of Tibetan Buddhism with his teacher Milarepa and ma Gamba says that, um, his pissing in the tea made it extraordinarily delicious.
[00:48:19] Host: It's like a strange, strange coincidence that these kinds of things are linked. And there seems to be quite a few of these that are linkages.
[00:48:28] Guest: There do indeed. And, um, there are scattered about, um, to bet on literature for the people who know. Um, now it's quite common in India and in Tibet for 10 truckers, people have practiced Tandra and the, the practices of tantra, the southerners that they are known as those who drink piss and eat dung.
[00:49:10] Now I have described the process of drinking beers. Um, what's eating done well. So also be mushrooms grow out of dome. And in fact they, they, they grow through it, but they appeared to be an extension of the dung itself. They are part of the cow counterparty. And so by eating them, you are eating in, in the eyes of the ancient Indians who described it as eating down itself.
[00:49:50] And these are not, um, separate, funky or plants. They are supposed to be part of the dung.
[00:49:59] Host: It's another interesting linkage.
[00:50:02] Guest: Yeah, there's a. These descriptions. Now, you, you spoke about the fifth precept. Um, now the Maha tantras, which, uh, um, there are some of the more advanced tantras Maha yoga tantras, um, they have their own five precepts.
[00:50:40] Um, instead of saying don't kill, it says they say murder and they mean that you should kill your own ego, your own notion of, uh, separate and, uh, abiding existence. When it says don't steal, it says steal when it says, um, I don't lie. It says you must lie. You must tell lies. And, um, when it says, um, don't commit sexual improprieties that says you must have sex only with your grandmother, your mother, your sister, or your daughter.
[00:51:26] That doesn't sound very nice. And now, now, but what it, what it actually means as it's explained in the commentaries. Well, uh, uh, the, the mother of your guru, your girl's wife, uh, someone else who has been initiated by a girl or someone you've initiated yourself, they're not literal. And, um, and when it comes to the fifth precept, it says you must eat, drink, and.
[00:52:03] Dung and drink you're in. Now it didn't say you must take drugs that cloud the mind. It didn't say you must drink alcohol. No, it said you must eat down and drink urine. So this is obviously symbolic too, but it's not explained in the commentaries. And I had to put that together for myself. And because of that, I'm quite prepared to, um, uh, to put it in a book and tell people about it.
[00:52:39] If, uh, if I'd been told well, hush about this, but it means
[00:52:49] cubensis I wouldn't worry. Yeah. I wouldn't be telling you about it.
[00:52:54] Host: So I'm fascinated just to. Got a little bit, that's just the question that's been kind of brewing is the idea of other ceremonial practices or aspects around this ancient kind of, um, process of, of psychedelic use. And if you've been able to uncover any others, I'm just a little bit curious what kind of great shows they performed other than the sacrifice, other than this, you know, drinking of
[00:53:22] Guest: in other religions,
[00:53:23] Host: anything that you found would be interesting, but yeah, within Buddhism would be, um, would be fascinating to know if there was just the ancient psychedelic use. If there, if there were any kind of other ceremonial kind of practices or patterns that you've seen between the different traditions in that area, other than the actual taking of the sacrament.
[00:53:44] Guest: Um, maybe I'd have to think about that. I do know that, um, um, It's also chancellor input J uh, very, um, very interesting, um, Lama from Butan of the stack here, lineage. He has said about such substances that we have ways of using these, you know, and, uh, and he also mentioned, if you don't believe me, I can give you page numbers and the tantras, which actually mentioned these drugs.
[00:54:34] And, um, he is, uh, he is said to, uh, use the Iowasca and his tantric feast, um, as he has students in Brazil where subs things are allowed and, uh, And one of his videos, which is available on YouTube, um, he says, um, oh, he makes several comments about payoti and says I was given some payoti juice before I came on, but it's not started working yet.
[00:55:13] So we know, we know now that psychedelics were used and still continued to be used by certain Lummus.
[00:55:23] Host: I think the interesting thing is for me in, in what way. In terms of, I know you're, you're writing a second book. I'm not sure if you've completed that one just yet, but
[00:55:33] Guest: I finished it yesterday.
[00:55:35] Host: Congratulations. It's kind of perfect timing. Would you be able to, yeah, I think in that book, I heard you mentioned once that you've, you've maybe outline and outline some things that people may be able to, um, explore in the realm of, you know, um, rituals or practices or modalities, um, that kind of bring us to a state of presence without psychedelics and kind of fusing the two.
[00:56:03] Um, there can be certain places that are reached that otherwise might not be able to, um, be explored with with as much depth. Um, are you able to maybe talk a little bit about some of those practices just. Um, I'm really interested in, in the ancient practices and, and the ones that are kind of, um, maybe people are practicing these days and, and, and exploring that territory a little bit.
[00:56:29] Guest: Well, um, one of the practices which I have outlined in the book is called the long home, and this can be practiced quite independently of any psychedelic use. And this is just, um, reciting the syllable home and, um,
[00:56:57] to put it, um, briefly I'll, um, uh, just explain it now. Um, take a deep breath and then with every ounce of breath in your lungs, You say home for as long as you can like this
[00:57:23] also.
[00:57:38] Now, if you recite this for about seven times and that's, what I would recommend is as a practice is to do it seven times
[00:57:52] then the long out-breath combined with the vibration of the lips, as you say, Ooh and not, or, or, uh it's. Oh, and it makes the lips vibrate. It triggers the switch to the parasympathetic nervous system. And when you, um, when your body is under the sway of the parasympathetic nervous system, which by the way, this is also called hacking the Vegas nerve or some, there are modern terms for it to, um, that then your blood pressure goes down, your pulse slows and you enter a very calm and clear state.
[00:58:55] This is something which can be done, uh, without psychedelics. And there's probably best to practice first. Um, Without using any psychedelics, uh, just so that you get it down and get the, um, the whole, um, like experienced. So it, and the feel of it just so that you can, like, you can feel that switch over to the parasympathetic, parasympathetic nervous system.
[00:59:31] Host: Do you hold something within like a thought or a feeling or a
[00:59:36] Guest: okay. If you want, um, if you want to elaborate the practice further, you can imagine little, um, either syllables in Britain, in Tibetan or, or words written in English of home in various different, uh, sizes and various different colors, emanating from you, as you say it.
[01:00:07] No, no, it doesn't have any meaning. Um, it's a BGR mantra, like Omar tree. And, uh, and so on these
[01:00:21] Host: vibration that you're creating. Yes. Yes. And for yourself? Yeah,
[01:00:27] Guest: quite exactly. Now there are practices for re reciting all five of the, um, the major BGR mantras home, uh, home free Trum. And, um, what was the last one?
[01:00:47] I. Oh, oh yeah, I think I said that. Um, okay. Um, but this is the most interesting, um, from my point of view, as, as you can actually feel it shifting your consciousness and
[01:01:07] Host: what this sounds like a very strange thing to ask, and I'm not, I'm just trying to figure out exactly what I'm, where I'm inquiring here, but what would be like a short get raised in earning detention for doing this?
[01:01:21] So what could be one.
[01:01:24] Guest: Well, well, um, if you are in a situation where you find your, your heart racing, your, your, um, breath coming in short pants, like little English school boys, um, and, um, um, maybe you can feel your blood pressure rising, getting a nosebleed or a headache or something, then do this practice.
[01:01:52] Just, I mean, just, um, I normally do it before meditation, but you can use it as a, uh, as a, um, a healing practice of the last resort. If you've tried all kinds of, um, medications and they don't work, try this and see if it does.
[01:02:22] Host: The next thing that comes to mind, fascinating to fascinate to hear about malpractices, but this one's, um, since it's a beautiful one and I appreciate you sharing it, I'm definitely gonna give that a try myself. Um, I was wondering if you could, if you had any insight into ancient integration processes, or if anything like that ever came up in your research,
[01:02:47] is there any proof of any of that happening or any
[01:02:49] Guest: kind of indication of it? Not per se, but it's probable that such, um, practices were discussed between guru and student after the initiations. And the initiation, there is a period, uh, called the tree in which you are expected to ask questions and the, well, in, in the tradition of my school, the Cod you, it's not felt to be, um, a proper initiation unless, um, everybody involved has asked all the questions that they, uh, they have in mind and all the doubts and misgivings they were asked of the, uh, the, the initiating girls.
[01:03:58] And only when everyone has been satisfied that they understand the teachings completely. Is he allowed to get up? And he asks actually three times at the end of the tree now is everybody's satisfied. Does everybody have all the questions answered and I'm in your way, deal chat with you and the old ask again.
[01:04:25] And eventually he asks three times and he says, all right, you've got it all. Now I'm off. And, and, you know, leaves it to, um, to you to, um, put the practice. And, um, if there is any, uh, question which arises out of your practice, following the initiation, then you can bring it up with him or with your own, um, personal girl is someone different.
[01:05:00] You can bring it up with them. Um, If it's about, however, every it is about an experience that you've had in meditation, we're allowed to bring it up once. And once only with your guru or, or one of your, your fellow initiates and, um, having brought it up, you're expected to keep quiet about it. Um, this is because if it is, um, uh, profound insight into the nature of non-duality
[01:05:46] by bringing it up again, you're only bringing up a memory of it and memories can only be made of words if your experience was in affable and beyond words. Then that's not what you brought up, you brought up a memory of it, which is made of words and concepts and feelings and whatever else. You may be able to drag into the conversation, but it's not the experience itself.
[01:06:23] Host: Yeah. It's interesting how that, that actually forms and shapes what you, how you remember or how that, how that experience itself is absorbed or changes within you by sharing it. And, but you can still share a once. So I guess that would still happen on some level. It still be watered down in some way, maybe not as much.
[01:06:47] Yeah. So it's probably best not to share it at all on the SU
[01:06:52] Guest: that's my opinion. Yeah. Yeah.
[01:06:57] Host: But there are occasions. Yeah. Like, for example, like the Indra's net or web that you shed that would have been kind of in that same category, but it's it's maybe there are exceptions or maybe there are times where it's probably more relevant or somethings you'd keep in some things you would share.
[01:07:14] That's interesting.
[01:07:16] Guest: Um, that's something which I explicitly discuss in my new book. I discuss the experience of Indra's net and my memories on it. And, um, how the, uh, description of it is not really my experience of Indra's net. It's only a description of, of the words and concept design have attached to it.
[01:07:46] Um, it was far more mind blowing than it ever is when I'm describing.
[01:07:51] Host: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what you described was pretty mind blowing in itself though. So would you be able to share a little bit more about this book? Like what else is in it? I know you've, I know you've already written the one that you've probably had most conversations to people about, which seems to be more of a, uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but more of a research into kind of, um, early use of psychedelics and the links to Buddhism.
[01:08:16] Guest: Um, and I mean the
[01:08:19] Host: may one seems to be more of a practical guide of some
[01:08:22] Guest: sort it is, and it's in two harms. It's psychedelics for Buddhists and that's one half, and the second half is Buddhism for Psychonauts. So, um, in the book the first half, I describe what psychedelics are, what they do. Um, and describe, um, the effects of a sudden, a
[01:08:56] subset of a selection of psychedelics. These are the ones that you might find in the street or might have offered to you at parties or whatever, and these are their effects and the, um, this is how they would be used in Buddhism, or this is how they are not useful to Buddhism.
[01:09:19] Host: Uh, could you touch on that point a little bit?
[01:09:22] How are they not useful for Buddhism? That's like, just for a moment. That's very interesting.
[01:09:27] Guest: Um, ketamine for instance, is very alluring and seductive for many people, but I don't, I don't think that it is ultimately of any benefit, uh, to Buddhism, um, unless you can learn to put yourself in this state, but eventually I think the state is, um, is still ego bound and, um, uh, the two, five M Boomi compounds, uh, um, apparently I'm not taken up.
[01:10:12] Um, but I've been told that there are fine psychedelics if taken in. Hit. But unfortunately, some people have found even one, one dose can be too much for them. And it's, it's, um, it's toxic for them. That's what I mean by too much and all that it's too much mentally, but it's too much physically for their body.
[01:10:37] Um, and um, much of the LSD available these days, um, is actually to five. I am Beau me. And, um, one, uh, one thing you should know about this is it's very bitter. So if you, um, you hold it in your mouth for a while and it, it tastes bitter. It's a spitter throws, spread it out because it's not LSD. Um, these are a few of the, um, The substance or which I am, um, I deemed to be not really useful to, uh, to Buddhist.
[01:11:28] Um, I have, I have, um, said that the LSDs and shrooms and, uh, um, that some of the two C compounds are very useful. Um, some of the Dio compounds are too much like stimulants to be useful and, um, often last too long, but, um, they can be used, uh, they could possibly be used, um, by, um, people want to meditate for 30 hours or whatever.
[01:12:11] Host: And moving on to the idea of . How would you say,
[01:12:17] Guest: oh, well, I've, I've, I've given several meditations, um, and some, some meditations for use. Um, and, um, in the context of, uh, MTMA or MDA and, um, the, the four positive emotions, for instance, love, compassion, joy, and equanimity. Um, there is a meditation which is intended to evoke these, uh, these emotions on a universal level to.
[01:13:04] To wish all beings to be connected to happiness and the causes of happiness, um, till we wish all beings to be separated from suffering and the causes of suffering and so on now, uh, such meditation's as these and Tom land, which is simply taking in giving, taking, suffering from sending them beings and replacing it with joy.
[01:13:38] Um, mentally of course, so we can't really do it in real life, but mentally we can, um, these are to be practiced, um, on psychedelics or on, um, and, uh, and pathogens such as, um, MDA MTMA, MDA AI, and.
[01:14:03] Host: Seems to be quite easy to notice when, when there's like an in balance or a strong leaning one way or another, between I can't the only terms that comes to mind at the moment, a buck, the in Shakti.
[01:14:19] So this idea of, um, devotion and, um, kind of awareness or, or kind of like, uh, a state of insight and leaning one way or another too much seems to be problematic. Um, you see this in terms of, um, like a blind devotion without a sense of awareness or on the other end, kind of all this knowing or insight that's not grounded in any, any continual practice.
[01:14:54] Um, and to me it seems like balancing, those is kind of what we're talking about here, if, but there needs to be some kind of a, an ongoing process that takes place after the, after the amplification that's brought about through the combination of these practices with, with the psychedelic substance.
[01:15:14] Guest: Um, yeah, I think so kinda solver, um, um, that, that what is on there is no real, um, appeal to back the, although there is, um, the Shakti, which, uh, uh, I mean, literally it's the term isn't used.
[01:15:40] The, um, the, the term is Chanda li uh, the fierce woman, uh, was, um, Uh, seen as equivalent to Shakti the risen Kundalini. Um, there is however, the emotional content of the four positive emotions, which I just mentioned, and it is, um, essential to, to be able to generate them, um, at will, if you like. And I have described the process of, um, uh, meditation where these can be generated at will
[01:16:36] Host: in the sense of kind of devotion. I'm not sure if there's, there's another way I can put it with Buddhism.
[01:16:42] Guest: It was such a thing as girl devotion.
[01:16:50] And there are different levels of guru devotion, which I do go into in the book. Um, um, these are, um, these are, uh, kind of, sort of back to you. This is, this is what I was considering when you said back,
[01:17:18] um,
[01:17:20] Host: could you share a little bit more just around those, just that, cause I'm just, I'm just very curious now. And, and I don't want, obviously don't want you to just give away the whole book in this chat. Um, but it's very, it's very fascinating and I didn't realize it covered so much ground.
[01:17:37] Guest: Uh, oh, the book you mean?
[01:17:39] Yeah. Um, it does. And I keep, I keep thinking of other things I should be adding to
[01:17:46] Host: the
[01:17:47] Guest: artist's curse. Yeah. Yeah. Um, there are, there are four levels of, um, of guru diversion. Um, there are four kinds of guru. These are not related, they're in different traditions. Okay. Um, but um, there is a, the, the girl who, um, um, points out practices and, um, um, Um, and philosophies and so on to you.
[01:18:34] There's the, the girl who is found in books. There's the girl who is found in everyday life, say, somebody cuts you off in traffic and you get angry and you think, oh, that's actually my girl. I, he just showed me how I can get angry at the slightest thing. And then there is the girl of, um, every day reality.
[01:19:01] These are the four different girls. Um, there are, uh, four different ways of, um, of merging with the guru of becoming the guru yourself. Um, I spend a little time on examining Terrence McKenna's, uh, expression of, um, his admonition, not to follow gurus, follow the plants. And I said he probably doesn't mean potatoes and cabbages and plant, but he's is talking about psychoactive plants and, uh, psychedelic fungi and so on.
[01:19:49] Um, and I, um, I take apart his, you know, his, his notion of, of guru, um, which I believe, although he's not around for us to question anymore, I believe he meant these, um, uh, ego inflated. People who believe that they are somehow better than you and more, um, they're wise, uh, um, uh, and more divine than you are.
[01:20:29] And so they allow you a little drips of their, um, their divinity. And I, I say that this is nonsense because we are all enlightened. We are, I mean, maybe they took acid one time and found that they were enlightened, which is all very well, but don't tell anybody else that they're not in life and to, uh, because we all have the same Buddha-nature, uh, And so I do go on at some length about this and that, and also mentioned that term before accepting anybody as a girl, you should really, um, check them out, sit in meditation with them for a few months, ask them questions, ask them searching questions about psychedelics.
[01:21:28] What do they think about them? Are they really who they claim to be? Are they really Lamas or are they gurus in the Hindu, some pro Daya or, you know, do they give themselves titles? Do they, um, in a. Inflate themselves or their own egos at the expense of their followers, you know, all of these, um, uh, questions I've I put in the book and said, there are more than a few more, if you want to, you know, add your own questions that you, uh, you want to examine your girl by and more criteria, which you can hold them up to and see how they measure.
[01:22:21] Host: It's interesting to consider where we, where we derive lessons from and, you know, the different kind of ways in which that can, that process can take place and the different types of teachers, you know, from within, from a fire.
[01:22:35] Guest: Yeah. And now one of the, the basic, um, uh, qualities of a teachers I have pointed out in the book is that, um, they should be someone who.
[01:22:53] Is in the business of showing you, you are your own teacher. Yeah. And covering the, the, um, border nature, taking, you know, layer after layer off, um, and revealing the Buddha nature within the two. Eventually the, uh, what's called the pointing out instruction.
[01:23:21] Yeah,
[01:23:22] Host: totally agree. I just kind of floating around in my mind space at the moment and I'm cognizant of time as well. So I don't want to kind of overstep with how much time we have to share. I just wanted to check in before I ask you anything else. How are we going to meet time and do we need it kind of close things off soon?
[01:23:40] Are you open? Are you? Cause I know it's getting late.
[01:23:43] Guest: I am. I think I should start cooking my dinner soon, so, well then
[01:23:50] Host: we'll definitely 10 minutes left. Yeah. I called to check in, so I didn't want to just keep going with that, the consideration. Um, and then we can let you off, off the hook to go have some food.
[01:24:02] Um, so yeah, cause I've noticed it's slowly getting darker and darker in your end, which is interesting. Cause it's like middle of the day here. Sunny. Yeah. Um, okay. So I wanted to know, um, yeah, just where to go since we've only got, um, a little bit of time left. I, I, I'm just thinking about this process of the.
[01:24:24] This just seems to me that never really occurred to me, you know, this idea of MGMA and you're meditating on, um, this sense of, of deep love, um, and compassion and which in itself is quite a powerful meditation, but combined with the thought of it being combined with MBMA, which just seems like there'd be an immense, um, amplification and explosion of love that takes place.
[01:24:50] And, um, it almost seems like it's a ramping up things. So, um, putting the foot down or putting the pedal to the metal, I guess, in terms of bringing in about this energy and really cultivating that from within and embodying that and having that experience, that, that then may be able to be, um, easier, more easily kind of referred back to, or gone a little bit deeper so that you can move into life with, you know, with that kind of more embedded.
[01:25:20] State, um, when you're going out outside of the psychedelic experience, would there be any other kind of reasons or, um, reasons to combine psychedelics with, with meditative states or different modalities? Um, besides amplification?
[01:25:38] Guest: Um, well, I didn't know. Um, someone has passed away now a guy called Alto Hastings.
[01:25:46] I was an English hypnotherapist. Well actually, um, took, I think it was seven people and, um, brought them back into the MTMA state with zero chemical assistance. And he did it by hypnotherapy.
[01:26:09] Host: Once that I already had that experience together,
[01:26:12] Guest: they had it. And one of the people, um, had. A single experience about 11 years earlier.
[01:26:21] And somebody else had had several, you know, like on a weekly or monthly basis. And so that their experiences were all over the place, but he brought them to the same, um, the same state, the same, uh, feeling of, um, of empathy. And, um, they all said that they were all asked afterwards how their experiences compared to actual MTMA.
[01:26:57] And they said either it was indistinguishable or it was better because there were no side effects. They had teeth grinding or what have you, um, let's see. I think that is, um, that's definitely a modality would, should be explored the use of S of hypnotherapy with MTMA and maybe, maybe, uh, with psychedelics as a whole, because, um, if you visualize yourself as say Avalokiteshvara Tara or Manju, Shri, um, and recite their mantras while on psychedelics, maybe, uh, visualizing that day or, and reciting their mantras would bring about the same state.
[01:27:59] I don't know. I haven't tried it.
[01:28:03] Host: Um, it would be interesting just as kind of a closing note. Maybe if you wanted to share with people that may not have kind of combined psychedelics with any of these practices or maybe, you know, Buddhists that might not have ever had any psychedelics. And I considering kind of venturing to that territory.
[01:28:20] Are there any considerations you'd like to share or any kind of, I'm sure there's plenty. And I'd love for you to kind of share where we can access your book as well, once it's ready, but are there anything that you could just kind of share to people sprinkle some seeds out there that if people are interested, you know, maybe it would help them on this path in a safe and
[01:28:38] Guest: responsible way.
[01:28:39] First of all, I think these days test your drugs. They should be, um, There are four more substances being sold as MTMA now than ever where in the past. And it's possible that to, to buy MTMA Molly, um, acts II, Mandy, whatever it's called, uh, which has absolutely zero to do with MTMA don't test your drugs.
[01:29:14] Also Tesco drugs for fentanyl. Uh, the, there should be zero fentanyl and LSD, but it is known that the LST which has been bought on the dark web is contaminated or has been found to be contaminated with fentanyl. This is essential these days that we, if you don't know the chemist personally, Test your drugs.
[01:29:47] Um, that's the most important thing that I have to say to anyone. And that's also part of my book.
[01:29:56] Host: So that's the biggest kind of safety precaution, anything to say in terms of, um, the idea of, I dunno, like the other side of the fence, and maybe even like, how do you feel about psychedelics? Do you feel like they're needed in that realm?
[01:30:13] And I'm sure people can, you know, in the modern day now
[01:30:16] Guest: and now there are plenty of, uh, uh, um, enlightened people. Who've never touched psychedelics. And there are plenty of people who've been meditating for years and got absolutely nowhere who adamant that psychedelic should not be used in this context.
[01:30:36] Um, I believe they're wrong. Um, but, um, that's why my, the first part of my book is psychedelics for Buddhists because I believe that people have to tighter hold on. Buddhism are really, um, closing themselves off to the experience of enlightenment. So, um, it, the psychedelics a love for everyone. Um, there are some people who just get too uptight, too scared, too.
[01:31:17] Um, overwhelmed by psychotic. Uh, who perhaps shouldn't take the mail. Maybe they should just meditate. Um, but do meditate. Um, that's, that's the, uh, that's one of the, um, the primary, uh, concerns on how people should meditate. Um, should they take psychedelics? Well, maybe, maybe not, but, uh, it wouldn't hurt to try and, um, it wouldn't hurt to try them both together.
[01:31:58] Host: I really appreciate you sharing that. And I just I'll let you go through this. I just have this thought of the importance of kind of, um, or the. The usefulness. I know in my own practice of kind of meditating after an experience and even allowing that to be a part of the, an essential part of the integration process of just really absorbing and sitting with whatever the experience you went through was
[01:32:23] Guest: oh yeah, absolutely.
[01:32:24] Absolutely. Yes. Yeah.
[01:32:28] Host: Thank you so much for coming on today and sharing your wisdom and your, your wonderful kind of bag of, of research and, and inquiry, you know, that all began from this kind of interesting journey you had with, with this little orange, um, the
[01:32:44] Guest: third of a third of a tab of Oregon sunshine and a teaspoon of cannabis.
[01:32:53] Host: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting combination. Hope you enjoyed this conversation with Mike. Oh, My say, if you are enjoying these conversations and you feel like deepening your connection with the show, you can definitely do that by supporting the mindful media vibes that are radiating out every week from the today.
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