Storytelling Humans
In this episode, Jiro Taylor and I look at the power of storytelling in humans. This episode, Storytelling Humans, is all about how the sacred stories we hear, share and create through our lives have a profound impact on the nature of reality. Jiro shares his amazing story and his perspectives on the power of storytelling humans, myth, magic and asks the challenging yet potent question "What is Sacred?" as we explore sacredness and stories in modern and ancient cultural contexts.
Forrest teaches us the deep meditation of making choices from love and not fear. We also get to know that the magic of overcoming the uncertainties of life is to deeply understand oneself. So, tune in to unleash the wonderful knowledge you have within you that can give you the power of effective decision making.
Show Notes Links:
Jiro Taylor https://jirotaylor.com/
Full Podcast Transcription:
Storytelling Humans
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Jiro Taylor
[00:00:00] Host: Hello out there. Hope you're well, and welcome back to the today. Dream of podcasts and welcome to this new moment that we're in together right now. I'm Michael, the host of the show. And here we explore what cultivating the practice of presence looks and feels like through the show. I hope to help you integrate your own process of doing and dreaming into just being, to be able to participate more deeply in the coming together.
[00:00:38] And the blossoming of the emergent world story today's episode is going to be around storytelling stories and the knowledge that gets passed down from them. We're going to be talking about sacred and. And we're going to be talking about rights of passage. My guest is GMO Taylor. Let me tell you a little bit about him to begin with.
[00:01:00] So JIRA is a guide to those seeking a deep connection with their soul path. He's work on his ancient earth wisdom, traditions, and flows into modern life. Through nature-based mentoring programs, ceremonies, and wilderness quests with the intention to help individuals remember the truth of who they really are.
[00:01:23] Besides the of remembering is actually how I came across your eyes work to begin with. I was having a discussion on a previous podcast with Tim Adelin. If you haven't heard that one and you enjoy this one, then I'll definitely recommend checking that one out. And I brought up the idea of remembering or recalling or coming back into.
[00:01:45] Uh, deepest state of knowing and he referenced Euro's work. So I had a look online. It's a digital digging and it just felt right to connect. I'll keep going with this bio. So Jiro is a founder of Shambala warrior, a one-year Rite of passage and mentoring program for men on the path towards ecological consciousness and sacred leadership.
[00:02:09] He works privately as an advisor and guide to a tight group of change-makers and pioneering CEOs. His gift is that of walking edges and being a bridge between worlds, a synthesizer of diverse wisdom traditions.
[00:02:25] Guest: So,
[00:02:25] Host: yeah, that's JIRA. We're going to get into a beautiful conversation or at least we had a beautiful conversation that I'm going to share with you today.
[00:02:34] So yeah, I hope that you've been enjoying the show. There has been a bit of a pause, a bit of a lengthy pause recently while I've kind of recalibrated things. I've just recorded 10 really beautiful conversations, including this one, with another five to come in the coming week. Which I'll be drip feeding out to everyone while I create many more hopefully opportunities to have some beautiful, unfolding, explorations into presence and being, and dreaming and doing so if you're enjoying the show and you want to take things a little bit further, maybe you want to connect on a deeper level by supporting then the number one way to do that, to support the transmission of these mindful media vibes.
[00:03:25] Adding to the interconnected sphere of shared space is to join the today dream of trial. You can do that by heading over to patrion.com/today. Dreamer not only that wall that helped me keep the show alive, but it also supports the intention or what the show stands for and the specs available as well.
[00:03:51] Some sweet little perks that I've set up for everyone that joins the tribe. So these pecs range from exclusive podcasts and educational videos to guided meditations, and there's also going to be monthly space, shared space Hangouts. Where are we going to hold space for one another and just explore what that real authentic intimacy.
[00:04:17] In a group sitting on line looks like. So yeah, if you're interested in supporting the show, patrion.com forward slash today, dreamer, there's other ways to support the show as well. You can tell a friend about it and it always makes me feel really nice inside. When I receive an email or a comment with a little bit of feedback about how the show may have helped you or some advice or something you could recommend
[00:04:42] Guest: adding or changing how you
[00:04:45] Host: felt about any part of any episode.
[00:04:48] I really appreciate that kind of stuff. So yeah, just putting it out there and let's see how this goes. As I like to do before the start of every episode, I'd like to invite you to join Jiro and I, to pause for a moment just to pause from whatever's happening in your life and to take a mindful breath, usually do this by as slow as possible.
[00:05:13] And as naturally as possible breathing in through the nose and into the belly, deep into the belly, pausing at the mark at the top, at the crescendo, at the peak of the mountain, just sitting in that space before gracefully exhaling and pausing at the bottom as well. And when we drop into that space with one another, we all gently take off into our conversation and see what insights and knowledge and wisdom we can uncover through storytelling and through Cheerios experience.
[00:05:53] Sorry, let's get into that.
[00:06:01] As slow as you possibly can take a nice deep
[00:06:15] belly.
[00:06:21] And when you reach a crescendo point, just pause a.
[00:06:52] just as smoothly and gently on the way out.
[00:07:19] I'm going to leave it to you to kind of see which direction you feel like going into. Yeah.
[00:07:26] Guest: Beautiful. Yeah. I'd say there's a couple of different kind of like story types. Um, one narratives, uh, to sort of discern between here. And, um, one thing that I want to speak about firstly is, is, uh, you know, storytelling and mythology poetry, um, this ancient way of transmitting information educating.
[00:07:56] And we think about it. It's actually the most ancient art form storytelling. It's the most ancient way to pass on codes and vital knowledge and rituals and sacred information from generation to generation to generation stories, songs, myths. I feel like that's one dimension of, of stories. And it's one that I'm passionate about because in our culture that we live in as this kind of obsession with, uh, literalism and materialism and rationality, um, and you know, the last few hundred years that science has, has become one of the dominating, um, I guess, frameworks of perceiving reality and.
[00:08:56] The way that I perceive it is that we all have within us, this mythic intelligence, it's this capacity to actually understand a story on a level that's non rational. Like if you look at, if you drop into Storytime and you've got some, it doesn't matter whether they're children or adults, you'll perceive a shift in body language and a shifting to the edge of the seat and are leaning in and eye captivation Athens.
[00:09:22] And to me, this speaks to the actual immediate awakening of this mythic intelligence, which is also. The soul intelligence. And so this mythic intelligence, it's not bound by a linearity, like rash. Like if we look at literalism and rationality is kind of like, it's like our CV, it's like our resume. It's like, tell me the story of your life.
[00:09:47] Okay. I'm going to write down where I live. When I was born, what date I moved here, I went to this school that did this degree. I went to this job right here is my life in this chronological linear thing. But it doesn't what doesn't capture. It. Doesn't capture the processes, the moods, the grief, the synchronicities, the miracles that Johnson counters, the heroic quest and the, the shadow work that like deaths and rebirths and all of the things that actually comprise of our existence as Sentium beings.
[00:10:23] So this story, what story does. It evokes and activates this mythic intelligence within us that understands metaphor. And it, it understands symbology and it can communicate and express and understand in nonlinear ways, which is, which can lead to all sorts of like it's a, it's an awakening of, of, of consciousness to actually rehydrate and re and live in this mythic intelligence that we have.
[00:10:56] And it helps us navigate life on a non-literal way, which really is short selling ourselves. If we're, if we're living in this kind of like literal time-bound way, it's a really short selling, uh, a chance to experience life as these multidimensional sentience beings with all sorts of intelligence systems within us.
[00:11:14] So that's one, one way in which I say storytelling is a beautiful way to capture that, to, to rehydrate that potential within us. And I find it. Renewing and regenerative. Um, and it actually helps to, for me to live through myself through my heart, rather than through just cognition and, and, and through these sort of cerebral rational frameworks that many people seem to live their lives by.
[00:11:40] And it allows me to live a more beautiful, rich nourishing wise life, because I'm able to absorb the wisdom from ancient stories. I'm able to drop into the myth of my own life and to actually start to perceive my own life as this mythical unfolding with all these amazing characters, um, and all these amazing experiences that are like stretching me and contorting me in ways that I can't even possibly give words to, but through story and through metaphor and through poetry, the speaking, the language of the heart and the soul, and is a possible way to capture this and the more accurate way.
[00:12:14] So, yeah, like, I guess I see stories as a, as a way to actually like guide us to live in a, in a more beautiful and whole and south centric. So that's one of the angles of storytelling. Is that what you were sort of alluding
[00:12:28] Host: to? I wasn't alluding to that specifically, but that was, that was beautiful. Thank you for sharing.
[00:12:33] Um, but that's, yeah, let's go with that thread for a bit. That sounds like fun. Um, but yet, like I just, what comes to mind is this like tuning into, or allowing ourselves to kind of be washed over by story. And this is sharing of stories and it almost seems like you're pointing to this looking at it's like a, it's like looking through the lens of story and being like doing that on a conscious level, like inviting even evoking story into our lives, into our very, being through the way we reflect on how we live and the way we move into moments and the way we just, we are.
[00:13:16] And I think there is definitely a thing that does happen. People. And there's like a, something that we just so drawn to stories and you see, you see it being manipulated in, through marketing and advertising and, you know, the inclusion of stories to really sell something or to connect with people.
[00:13:38] Because we just, it seems like we're kind of where we're set up to kind of really flow with stories. Like that's like, that's the way we are. And yeah, the, the act of storytelling, um, is something I think that's valuable to practice and craft, um, and inviting story evoking story into our wives by, you know, rituals and, um, the way in which we kind of move about our existence.
[00:14:10] Like, it's, it's a thing, you know? And, and I think it does make things a lot richer. Like you mentioned on all those different levels, because there's just. Something about a good story that it's like, it's all about the detail, you know? Like, like it's like those little details and really, really pull you in and they really make you feel like you're, there's almost like a, I don't know.
[00:14:34] I get deepening of life of vitality, a feeling of a liveliness, I guess that takes place for rich story. Um, it makes me feel alive. That's what comes to mind for me anyways.
[00:14:47] Guest: That's because the story is actually a living entity. It's got a consciousness of its own. If you take a story, imagine a story coming from the central deserts of Australia, that's a hundred thousand years old.
[00:15:00] Doesn't make pass down and pass down and refined and distilled. And it's been chosen to be passed down. Think how many stories passed by the white side. And don't get paused from grandmother to grandson or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And that contain wisdom. And so the story meets the list. Where the listener is at their life.
[00:15:23] So say that you're saying that you were hearing the same story. You are moving through something with your wife, and you're getting challenged by this, that, and the other. I'm not married. I've moved to a new country and I'm meeting a different sort of threshold perhaps, or career threshold. The story, the same story can meet you in one place and challenge.
[00:15:43] You awaken you or activate something and energize you and seep into your consciousness, into your body and sit with you. And it might one day unfold, some gem that will enable you to perceive the way that you're showing up in your relationship with your wife in a completely new way. Meanwhile, I could be on the other side of the world, I've listened to the same storytellers, tell the same story and something completely different is unfurling within my.
[00:16:10] And so there's an, a liveliness to this. It's like, it's almost like the story is, is a living organism. It's actually becomes like a million different organisms depending on how many people are hearing and absorbing the story according to where they're at in their life. So it's actually not a static piece of information, right.
[00:16:32] It's actually living and it's breathing and it's emergent and it changes. And then one day I'll tell that story. And the way that I tell that story will be inflected and infused with exactly the frontiers upon which I've been walking and the way that it landed in my body. That's, that's, what's going to come into the medicine of me telling that story, and then it's going to be listened to and passed on again and again and again, it's such a beautiful, beautiful art form.
[00:17:00] Isn't it? That's a profound way of passing down truth.
[00:17:04] Host: That's it comes to mind for me, truth, you know, it's like this idea of like, When you hear the truth or when you speak the truth, it's like, nothing can get in the way, because it's like a diary, it's some kind of a direct, um, uh, connection that that takes place.
[00:17:22] And it's like, it's a, it's a, it's a real thing. And that makes sense why the story, you know, lasts for generations and that wisdom and truth that's of the purest essence is passed down, you know, through different, um, again, through different vessels. And, um, it changes each time, you know, if it's embodied and it's pasta in a certain way, and then it can be heard, like you mentioned, in different stages of one's journey or different from different angles and it still kind of hits home wherever you're at.
[00:17:54] It's not like, you know, the truth just fits in. Um, because it's the truth. It's something, yeah. There's something really nice and pure about that.
[00:18:04] Guest: Oh man. Like. Want to ourselves and each other, by telling our own stories, this is, this is really what it comes down to. It's like the opportunity or the responsibility to actually tell our own stories.
[00:18:20] Um, it's such a beautiful practice. It's, um, something that I encourage, the people that I work with to, to Jenny into, because it requires us to, to drop into our truth. Right? If we're going to share our story, we have to know our truth. We have to like really understand that the mythic or mystical dimensions of how life has unfolded within us and then give it all best attempt to articulate that.
[00:18:47] And it's a living art form that we're expressing. And it's, it's such a, it's such a beautiful thing. I really feel passionate about us sharing our own stories in more regular. Bold and courageous and colorful ways. And that's
[00:19:04] Host: more of that. That sounds
[00:19:06] Guest: good.
[00:19:07] Host: I, man, I feel like you'd be a good, good story.
[00:19:10] Terror tells you, I reckon you would tell an amazing story.
[00:19:15] Guest: I got a few stories up there, but I also love listening to stories, you know, and honing this crate. I'm learning the art of listening to story. Um, it's something that actually requires practice. You know, I've been listening to storytellers for, for, for quite a while.
[00:19:30] And there's definitely been an increased ability to listen with the entirety of my being to a story being told and allowing it to sit in me. It's like, it's like, it's like you learn to listen, not just with your ears, but you learn to listen through every sensory organism. Tell me more
[00:19:50] Host: about that. That's interesting.
[00:19:52] Guest: Yeah. Well, So there's like listening through the head, I guess, to the ears, you know, of course we're taking all sound into the ears, but we're listening to the head. It's, it's like it's being channeled through a cognition through the whaling cogs of cerebral activity. And then as like listening through the body, and this is where there's an actual somatic response, there's a somatic experience that's unfolding.
[00:20:26] And as I'm listening to the story, like my body is. Is being activated or challenged or feeling feels, or my heart is bursting or my throat is dry or I'm feeling a Twitch in my left leg, or my hips have gone tired or it's like, but there's actually like a, yeah. A practice of learning how to become embodied and to become somatically receptive, um, to stories, which I'm again passionate about, because I see about a whole bunch of humans out there who are rather like, like walking heads on some sort of biological apparatus to keep that bubbling six foot off the ground.
[00:21:07] And, and I'm seeing a reduction in the human capacity to hold paradox and to really, really appreciate. Well, to be able to dance in the mystery of life, without having to know all the bloody answers and solve all the problems and slice perfection up into a million pieces because they actually operating as these reburial one dimensional robots, rather than, as like fully embodied multidimensional beings with all these different intelligence systems and therefore the ability to hold paradox and hold mystery and hold conflict and be both in rage and in compassion at the same time.
[00:21:48] For example, these are things that can actually compute in cognition in the mind. So yeah, I find it a really powerful practice to practice. I'm talking about pure presence here, just to make it more simple. I'm talking about presence, nothing more, nothing less than just the ability to be fully here now.
[00:22:14] 'cause it's happening anyway. It's happening. Regardless if I can just be here fully. And it's happening. I'm taking in your face, even, not even through zoom, it's happening, you know, which is amazing, but like your body language, it's all flowing into me. Mine is into you. The way that I inflect everything is you are experiencing, you are listening with your whole body, but there's a way of deepening that, that I feel has been really pivotal on my path to learn how to just be more present and more aware and be able to soak in more information and therefore to become more aware and therefore to be more conscious and therefore to be more self-responsible than contributive to the flourishing of conscious life on it.
[00:22:56] Host: Yeah. Yeah. Um, three things are coming to mind at the moment. One of them is this idea of like language being so much more than just the words that come out of our mouths and that there's like this there's, this felt sense of being around someone and, and communicating. Um, supporting and loving and sharing and just being really the essence of it is just kind of being around other people.
[00:23:24] There's something that's transmitted and co-created, um, I like to think of it through the lens of like vibrations or vibes. And it's like these fields of vibes that are kind of invisible to see what the eyes, or kind of hear with ears, but you can really feel into them if you can drop into that state of being.
[00:23:44] And there's something beautiful that happens when you're in that state, because you get to really, for me, it's like, it's like a feeling of love because you're, you're, you're kind of feeling into the other person. And it's like this unique being that's like that Scott got a unique expression, but they're kind of connected to you and you're allowing that connection to take place.
[00:24:10] Um, Encouraging it, when you're in that state of being, I feel,
[00:24:16] Guest: yeah. Th what you speak to is what I would describe as true intimacy. Intimacy is often conflated as sexuality, but intimacy is what you just described there, like receptivity and connection on a being to being level, you called it love. It was like, yeah, I would go, I would go a step further with love.
[00:24:41] And to say that love is the
[00:24:45] love is the unstoppable emanation from our beings that happens to be regenerative and carries within it, the full expansion, freedom of the other, uh, or itself. Um, but I feel like this intimacy, yeah. Stories, stories, beat intimacy. Of course. You know, like if I'm telling you my story, The deepest stories and I'm telling them from a truthful place.
[00:25:17] So my raw cracked open place from my heart. And you're listening with your heart and you're telling me your stories from your heart. And this is true intimacy. This is true connection. And this is, and this is truly what is yearned for by the human. And we think about
[00:25:36] conflicts in so many different ways, whether it's in couples who are facing divorce or teenage son rebelling against parent or indigenous tribe that has been colonized and pillaged by colonial conquest is whatever it is, whatever dimension of life relating conflict that we're talking about here, what we're experiencing is a loss or a lack of intimacy, like a true capacity and willingness to actually like listen to and receive and share stories.
[00:26:13] You know, to like really understand on a really deep level. Hmm. So yeah, just to circle back on stories and their potency, I feel like, yeah, that's, it's unfolding within me as a, as, as a way to deepen intimacy in my personal relationships, but also as a life of humanity, to understand how to be in relationship with each other in the earth and to cultivate greater peace and harmony and coherence by sharing and listening to each other's stories sounds so basic and obvious, but it seems rather overlooked.
[00:26:54] Yeah.
[00:26:55] Host: Yeah. I just keep thinking of this idea of like the second thing I was going to mention was that the thought of like, it ties in nicely with what you just said as well, like this idea of like, like a numbing or a desensitization or like a. You know, there's been instances where I've been in situations and I've heard almost like a robotic repetition of a story, um, in different, you know, to different people in different times of the day or, or even like, I felt like a sense of repetition and they sensitized station through being, I guess I was traveling for quite a while and I came back to Melbourne and being in a city kind of setting an urban environment.
[00:27:47] It seems to be something that washes over us gradually back again, bringing us back into this state of like numbness. It's just something I've noticed with, you know, it even comes down to the sounds that you hear like mechanical noises, um, construction or cause going past. But I think it goes through everything like social media and.
[00:28:12] Different forms of distraction in our lives that are so prevalent and so self perpetuating. And I feel like, it seems as though stories cracked through that stories have the ability, like we said, to be, to produce some intimacy between people and beings and, and, and allow us to really, I don't know, wash away some of that, um, become a little bit more sensitive rather than a little bit less.
[00:28:44] Guest: Yeah. That sort of model that I sometimes think about when I, when I, when you, when I'm thinking about what you just spoke to, um, is that what, like, what is, what is sacred and what is not sacred? And you could use the word profane and the word sacred, um, and there's this, there's something about, you know,
[00:29:12] There's a, there's a type of, there's a type of existence. You could say that it's all sacred. And of course, I'd agree with you on that, on, on that level, that all life is sacred, but you can also perceive how living through the mind and a kind of robotic repetitive way and living in non-truth and just following the herd.
[00:29:29] And you could say that there's a kind of profanity to it in the sense that it's it's, um, it's not authentic. It's, it's, it's not original. Um, and then obviously when we go to much of our culture, I would say is profane. It's not sacred. I haven't pierced through to the sacred and. You know, and that's why we're living in a culture.
[00:29:54] That's actually a death culture. That's actually contributing to the, to the, to the pretty rapid destruction of all life on earth. Right. Um, whereas there are cultures out there that have been regenerative and they have been sacred in the sense that the earth honoring and they're regenerative of all life.
[00:30:09] Right? So like, this is what I'm speaking about. Like the sacred is like it's honoring life, whereas the profane is not honoring of life. Yeah. So stories help us break through Pierce through to the sacred, the sacred that there's not a sacred world. The profane world is kind of like this linear two dimensional kind of flat drab, kind of process-driven analytical, just journey from birth to death, with some peaks and troughs along the way.
[00:30:48] Like the city V that I spoke about. And, and so, yeah, stories a lot, these time-honored way to bring the listener into a deeper knowing of the inherent interconnection of all life. So we can hear a story from 10, 10,000 years ago, and it has relevance in our life like, huh? That's because it's all connected.
[00:31:09] We can hear a story from 10,000 miles away and it's relevant to wildlife sitting here on this continent. Why? Because all is connected. Like, so these ancient stories are like calling us in they're like songs, like calling us back into the mystery, calling us back into the sacred realms, calling us out of the delusion of profane life as a doing robotic human and calling us back into the sacredness of being the earth in con in Canadian, in bodily.
[00:31:42] Being wild, being free, being part of the unfolding mystery and therefore having responsibility for it. Stories are definitely powerful for that brother. Yeah. That's what, yeah.
[00:31:55] Host: That's beautiful. What's coming out now is just this idea of like, of nature being that powerful as well. And, and like, just picturing like the, like the Namaste, um, most the sensitized individual on the planet and maybe popping that person or that being into nature and then like what would happen?
[00:32:24] Like would inevitably tell
[00:32:26] Guest: you what happens? Yeah.
[00:32:28] Host: Yeah. Um, what do you mean you do it? Can I tell me some about something about that, some more about that? Cause like, I, I want to. Jamie back and forth has being really nice, but I'm curious, I'm so curious about your life and about, um, what you do is that yeah.
[00:32:45] Um, I've got like a, um, a fractured picture that I'd like to kind of, and I'd love to hear a story from you if you, if you want to say site in story form, which I think is like, it will come through anyways,
[00:32:57] Guest: but yeah.
[00:33:01] Yeah. I mean, I mean my, my life right now, I'm currently sitting in a van, which is my house. I'm looking at a beautiful valley in the bar in hinterland. It's so nice. Um, I'm, uh, I'm a wild being that likes to express himself and explore this human experience. And then I'm devoted to freedom in its, in its true essence.
[00:33:29] And so my path through life is to explore the route of freedom, which takes me to. Sacred grounds of truth, truth that limitation without filter, not true distorted and actually like fear in disguise, but actually truth. So this is my life. I explore it. I inquire, I take myself on quests. What I was talking to you about before was when I said we do this work, um, for the last five years, may have some colleagues have been running, uh, wilderness, rites of passage, where we take human beings into wild places.
[00:34:06] And we prepare them in interesting ways as a very practical thing around water and fire and snake risk and what to do if all these sorts of things might happen. But actually the preparation on the soul level is all done through poetry and stories. Interesting tide of this conversation. So we prepare to drop them in to wild nature, to sit by themselves for four days and four nights with no food and just water and no pad and paper and no book and no distraction of any kinds.
[00:34:37] And we prepare them by infusing that being with ancient stories and poetry, and by guiding them to begin to explore the poetics of their own imagination by writing poetry. And then they go off into the wilderness and they sit with. I sit as nature in spaces of silence, that few humans in this cause will ever experience.
[00:35:05] I'm just, I'm just like dilates and distorts and stretches out and you're left with nothing, but what's within you and the mirror of great nature. Just reflecting back at you. And I've taken people who have taken CEOs of companies. I've taken people who have lived in suburbs and heavily domesticated lives and live in skyscrapers work in skyscrapers.
[00:35:29] I've never, I've had clients who have never put their feet on the. And like throw a little fit if a mosquito lands on them and then I've dropped them into nature into these experiences. And I've had the true blessing of witnessing the type of transformation in a human being that is just miraculous.
[00:35:50] I've like when we send them off to the date of a drum fire burning, when they're off to do that solo, it's very mystical. And these guys are all in fear. They are like, what am I, what am I about to do? What am I doing? This is crazy. And they go off and we'll say goodbye. And then four days later at Dawn, the fire's burning the drums beating and they, and they come back from their places.
[00:36:14] So I get to witness in four days, a human being in front of me, pre questing and post questing. And the it's. It brings me to tears in that experience of beating the drum and watching them come forth because I'm witnessing a human being that is. So much non-truth and faced all of the stories of that mind and all of the projections.
[00:36:40] And they've looked at all of the trauma because this is just what happens when we're not distracted by Netflix and iPhones and all sorts of things. We just sit in empty space and these human beings have done so much processing and so much just being held by nature. It's been held by nature and just so much remembering of the wild essence that they truly are beneath.
[00:37:08] And the matrix of belief systems and thoughts and ideas and labels and titles and all these sorts of things. Nature just washes that shit off nature. Silence solitude is washes that off. You know, it might take a few quests for it to be fully washed. It might take some journeys with some plants. It might take some of the passion is it might take just more deep process work or whatever it is your pathway, but essentially it's this accelerated process that nature facilitates of all the artificialness and delusion in fabrication that our egoic minds have conjured up to create this false sense of reality just gets washed away in the river.
[00:37:46] And what's left behind is truth essence being this isn't this Saul. And it's. So I get to see these human beings walking from their quest sites. And it's like witnessing a few minutes. That's just being the doula of his own Reba. And there's this radiance, this shot this sometimes as just like physical depletion things Austrian, but you can see in the eyes and you're like, holy fuck.
[00:38:10] You've just like touched the infinite. Yeah, yeah,
[00:38:16] Host: yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. That is so beautiful. Um,
[00:38:22] Guest: um,
[00:38:26] what about you, man? Have you spent much time in wild places?
[00:38:30] Host: Yeah. I've spent quite some time during the travels, especially, and I think I had this really profound experience where I was like a month in the jungles of Costa Rica. And I felt like that, I think like there's something about long-term immersion that is just like really cleansing on a really deep level.
[00:38:48] I think. I mean, I'm really curious. What you do with these guys? Cause it sounds amazing. And it sounds like the transformation is, uh, is a beautiful bike. It really does. It's so nice. It's such a nice thing that you just expressed. I just want to like yeah. Acknowledge that, I guess. Um,
[00:39:12] Guest: so
[00:39:14] Host: yeah. Yeah. So I've spent a bit of time in nature, um, and I've really called to the jungles recently.
[00:39:21] Um, I feel as though I've yeah, I've been to a different lot of different places, had a lot of different experiences and all of them have been special and unique in their own. Right. And different times I've kind of felt the energy of different types of nature or, or shades of nature calling. And now I'm really, for some reason, cold to like back to the jungle.
[00:39:43] And I think because it was such a powerful experience in Costa Rica. I feel as though the junk was calling me in a sense, um, and it's, but I'm living in an urban environment at the moment. So, I mean like in the suburbs in Melbourne, and it's like, it's interesting because I'm still relating to nature in a sense, like I'm looking around and looking at the leaves of trees and as I'm driving or, you know, I've got abundance of plants around me and, um, cause it'll God and going and things like that.
[00:40:13] And it seems to be almost more of a, it's needing to be more of a, like a organized thing. Now it's like, I need to, I've started booking and planning time in nature ahead and not just kind of book it in. So I'm, I'm doing it regularly. Um, I've got a trip coming up in two weeks with my, or in one week now with my little son and we're going into some nature for a couple of days together, which I'm really looking forward.
[00:40:44] Um, it's like, uh, there's like a beautiful spot with some Walnut trees and, um, there's like a beautiful river flowing through and I want to kind of take you into the water and have him kind of get his own, you know, natural downloads from being in, in that space and kind of, yeah. Being thinking about him a lot recently and about kind of him being this kind of extended part of me into the fabric of existence and like how I want to give him and share as much as I can with him and have him connect to his wild side as well.
[00:41:22] Um, yeah, I kind of, yeah, I dunno. I want to hear more about these experiences though.
[00:41:32] Guest: Well, I'm happy to share it. It's a big part of my work and yeah, just to sort of. Backtrack. It might be useful to just share some story in terms of how I came to this and let's do that. That's a
[00:41:43] Host: good idea
[00:41:43] Guest: of that. Yeah.
[00:41:46] Okay, cool. So yeah, it's been a long winding road to get to this place of realizing the power of nature, the power of story, the power of like just raw experiences that help us perceive the truth of what we really are. I was born into a, my mother's like a fanatical Jehovah's witness. So she's, um, which is like a it's very culty, um, and very bright and washing.
[00:42:11] Um, so we, from the ages of zero to 15, and I basically had my brain pickled by religious dogma and, um, at the age of 15, I broke out and it was like, I guess, looking back, it was my first Rite of passage. I self-initiated myself into a level of truth and freedom, which required a lot. Courage, you know, I had to, my mother, as far as my mother was concerned, I was choosing death.
[00:42:40] You know, that's a religious belief. You're either in us, in with us and you're going to survive on McKenna and live in paradise on earth. This is that belief or you're going to die in Armageddon. And I was basically saying to my mom, I don't believe in your shit. And she's saying you're going to die.
[00:42:53] Anomic at him. And, and she's
[00:42:56] Host: great. That sounds intense it. And it sounds like, it sounds like you would have been brought up in that environment and with that vibe from different angles. And like, I'm just picturing the journey of getting to that point of like, saying that to your mother in that position.
[00:43:12] In that moment,
[00:43:14] Guest: it's a big part of me belief that I'm going to die in Armageddon because that's what I've been pickled with. That's the belief system I've been pickled in the film, like, fuck, I might actually dynamic ed and she might be right. This is a possibility. Yeah. So I like, I broke out of that. The Jehovah's witnesses, they call our religion the truth.
[00:43:33] That's this sort of inner language for religions shorthand. It's like, oh, is he in the truth? Are you in the truth? So they sort of colonize this language that they take ownership of this word and this word, this the essence of it. So this word is I've had to like reclaim it all off. And the irony is, is that having been spending the first 15 years of my life, like kind of like forced into this mold, a very rigid dogmatic, ideological, brainwashed thinking I've then spent the rest of my life breaking free from all of that.
[00:44:10] It's been an absolute blessing and an absolute blessing, and I've just gone completely radically the other way, radically 50. And I was reading NITSA and Watts and Krishna Murti and yeah, because I was looking for truth, you know, I was like these guys, these guys claimed a monopoly on truth, and I don't buy that.
[00:44:31] So I, my soul died in me or whatever. Maybe it was a friend. I can't remember, but I was reading Alan Watson. And studying Zen, Buddhism and Taoism. And I find myself living in Japan for a couple of years, going deeper into, into that those Zen Buddhist pathways and written learning how to sit in meditation for hours at a time and, and really
[00:44:53] Host: like temples and stuff for,
[00:44:56] Guest: yeah.
[00:44:56] So I was, I had a template at the end of the road. I'd, I'd go to I, wasn't a mom kind of
[00:45:00] Host: thing. Part of Japan where you were in,
[00:45:03] Guest: um, south Japan, Kmart's cold, it's really, it's rural Japan. So I became fascinated by Eastern philosophy and different ways of perceiving self the universe. Um, and that was really, really fundamental in sort of like deprogramming my mind from this from some festival, the religious dogma.
[00:45:27] Um, but that was still some programming in me, lots of programming and still is, um, So after that experience in Japan, I find myself following this kind of like pre-programmed pathway that me and my friends found themselves on, which took me to the corporate world, like university corporate world work in a
[00:45:44] Host: city consciously or unconsciously.
[00:45:47] Probably
[00:45:49] Guest: I had this, I remember this choice point and it was like, oh, I could actually be a monk. Like I get this, I get this pursuit of, um, of truth. I understand. I value this. I understand what these guys are doing. It's not, it's not just escapism. It might be for some, but I can see the, the, I can see the beauty in a life devoted to space and truth.
[00:46:11] Um, so there was an actual process where I was like, oh, I could go that way. And then there was this other thing in me, which was like, I actually, I don't believe in this cultural myth that success is a million dollars in a Ferrari and a yacht and a hot wife and a property portfolio. I don't buy it, but I'm.
[00:46:30] I'm going to give it a go anyway.
[00:46:33] Host: It's like, it's like, you're kind of almost going against yourself though, you know, and you, and you know, you're doing it. You know what I mean? I know the feeling well. Yeah. And then it's, it's almost like, uh, and it's interesting, cause you've had this, you've had this experience with the Eastern philosophy and you're moving into this space of like, um, you have the opposite direction.
[00:46:54] So it seems consciously you're moving into that. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:46:58] Guest: And I chose to like, the way that it worked out is that I ended up being like 25 years old, earning a million dollars a year or one and a half million dollars a year as a head hunter, um, in the finance industry, finding the. The best, most talented, most highly paid traders that would be working for hedge funds and banks.
[00:47:18] And I would find them, I would, um, get to know them I'd bond with them. I'd persuade them, I'd manipulate them, uh, use all sorts of psychological tactics and I'd figure out all sorts of things that eventually it might lead to me moving them to my client in which case that exorbitant fee was paid to me, um, for this, for my role in this, in this transfer of talent from one place to another very much like a parasite, uh, on a, on a, on a, on a, on a rhinoceros, you know, this were an OSR theme of financial systems and I was just playing this little role, but getting paid ridiculously good money for it.
[00:47:54] But I was surrounded by some of the most highly paid, um, yet fearful, egotistical human beings on the
[00:48:01] Host: planet. You're right. There's this whole, um, good people effect or the opposite going on where there's like. You know, the vibes are transmitting and you're connecting and, and there's a, there's a, again, a self-perpetuating kind of system goes on when you're hanging out with anyone.
[00:48:17] So that would have had a deep effect on you. I'm sure
[00:48:20] Guest: the corporate world, as I experienced it, maybe it's changed. A little bit. I thought the corporate world
[00:48:27] Host: it's changing, but there's always something there's always that thing about it. Yeah. Or we can
[00:48:32] Guest: say, but the way I experienced it was that it's, it's, it's a total fear culture, right?
[00:48:38] Theater of not having fear of not climbing the ladder, fear of not earning what he is. Fear of. Not being able to keep up fear of failing, fear of getting to the end of the career. And you've got no money. Fear of letting people down, fear of being marked fear of being shamed, fear of not making your father or your mother proud.
[00:48:52] It's like, these are the things that are like fueling people have never thought about
[00:48:56] Host: it like that. Uh, it makes a
[00:48:58] Guest: lot of sense. Well, why else would you sacrifice your freedom and become a slave to a corporation and sell the best years of your life, where you could be exploring mountains and temples and, and playing with your children whilst they're actually awake in the middle of the day, instead of climbing up the stairs to go to some dingy office, that's actually like sky prison, where you're going to sell your time for some promise of security in the future.
[00:49:24] Why else would you do it? Unless you're fucking terrified of what happens if you don't do it,
[00:49:27] Host: can you don't walk, man? Um, there's this, there's this idea that I came across recently, I had had a chat with, this is this guy that we were talking about choice. And I was really synchronistic how he came into my life because I had this, it was like a vaporizer box that I'd bought years ago.
[00:49:45] And on the back of the box, it said something like, you know, love is always greater than fear. You know, always make choices from a place of love over fear. And I read that and it was again, another one of these. Direct lines into truth on a, on a little box, like on a product. And I was like shocked by that.
[00:50:04] And sequin used to leave after this guy. And that came back into my life recently and I got in touch and we had a conversation, but it comes back to this idea of like, it makes sense to make a decision or a choice out of love. And, and it makes sense to move away from the ones from fear. And when, once you start embodying that in doing that in your life, I think things start blossoming in unexpected ways, but it's often difficult to get that ball rolling.
[00:50:30] And it's, it's even more difficult because even as you just explained it. I I've never looked at it like that. And I've been in that space. I've never looked at it through that lens of oh yeah. Makes total sense. You're scared of everything. And, and again, that leads you to decisions that continue that, that cycle.
[00:50:49] How did you break through that cycle? What was the point? What was that moment like? And I don't know if you could maybe go into that a little bit, because it seems like you've made, it seems like maybe it was one decision that came from love.
[00:51:04] Guest: Yeah. Excuse my cough. But, um, yeah, man, it was, um, yeah, what came up for me when you're just speaking there is that, is that when we are actually mistaking ourselves for our personalities, which is what most people are doing by the way, um, most people think they are this personhood, you know, that works at this bank and goes to jujitsu on Thursday night and likes oranges and.
[00:51:34] The sports team and believes this and doesn't believe that. And um, most people believe that they are this projection. This is really key. I thought though, was this projection for a while, but I always had that Eastern wisdom in me, but for a time I forgot that and became this projection. So I became this ego, like I thought I was his ego.
[00:51:55] And so I developed these go act tendencies and became quite narcissistic. And like I loved validation and pats on the back. And Jerry, you're fucking great at this. And you're good at this. And I became a little bit of an asshole. Like I became like, cause I was really good at my job and I was high flying and I was making more money than anyone else.
[00:52:13] And I was just this young punk who's thought that he was the boss and king of the world. And, and it was just like, but the whole time there's wiser, a part of me knew that this was just. This is just like artifice. This is illusion. This is, I was just projecting, pretending to be this person. Right. And the whole time I knew that.
[00:52:34] So this gradual sense of. In congruency began gnawing at me, um, on a daily basis. And I'd have these insomnia, like sleepless nights lying awake. And my skyscraper, my deluxe apartment, just like knowing that, that was this selling out, this fakeness happening, this wasn't it. I was pretending to be someone and then all the way me in Norway, it meant until it reached a critical point of where it sort of like ruptured.
[00:53:02] And it, it, it's not a nice feeling. I don't know if you have experienced, but pretending to be someone and carrying the weight of like this fake, like personhood. And, um, what it resulted in me was this, I had basically had like a quarter life breakdown, life experience. I was just like, I just didn't want to carry it anymore.
[00:53:24] I had to, I remember this one morning of getting ready to shave, to go to work, to go to my office for the day. Like I do every day. And I was just like, is this like, what am I doing? And I remember looking in the mirror and like having this, this real amazing experience of looking at myself and seeing like my soul or my spirit or my essence, or my true self, kind of like trapped within this like cage of personhood.
[00:53:52] And I was like, shit, that's me. And that's not me. And it was a very, very evocative, um, transcendent experience that I had. And I began to have more and more of those experiences of just this like remembrance of what I really am, the essence, the wild creature that I really am beneath the suit and beneath the words and beneath everything beneath what other people thought about me and what I projected to the world beneath that there's like this essence, its original essence of what I am, I call it like being right.
[00:54:23] And so it began to just like shine through and as I began to connect with. It just became inevitable. I just made rapid decisions and I was gone from that wall and I just made a final cut and I was gone. And the people that, you know, the company that I was working for, they couldn't believe what I was talking about.
[00:54:41] They're like, what do you mean? They, they thought I was going to a competitor and they tried to offer me more money and they try to like, just keep me in guilt trip me. And I was like, no, no, no, I'm, I'm going, I'm going to live through the core of my being. And so I went, so I moved to Bali and, um, I just bought on a, on a radical spiritual acceleration journey, self guided by myself.
[00:55:01] And I meditated for two to three hours a day. I went surfing, I practice yoga and I read books on philosophy and consciousness and neuroscience and psychology and shamanism and deep ecology. And I just like, like infused myself with wisdom and was living it as well with living. It was exploring, it was, and I was decolonizing myself of all of these constructs.
[00:55:25] That fed my personhood. So all these beliefs, for example, money will make you happy or money will give you security. Or if you make your dad proud, then you'll be happier because your dad's proud. And I just went to the root of all of these beliefs, all of these stories, if you will. And I just began dismantling them one by one by one.
[00:55:44] Like, is it
[00:55:46] Host: more about that
[00:55:46] Guest: process? Yeah, it's um, it's refined over the years, back in those days, the process was more like, um, gentle work, like sitting in the surf or sitting in empty space and just be like, why did I do that? W why, why did I just spend seven years in misery making lots of money in the corporate world?
[00:56:09] I mean, like, okay. So I did it because, and I'll just list a whole lot of reasons for me, it was, you know, I wanted the validation from my friend. I wanted to be perceived as successful. I want it to make my father proud. I want to feel safe and stuff. You know, I want to be able to buy whatever I want. I want, I want to be a successful human being in there, all these things.
[00:56:29] And I just went to the core of all of them. And I was like, what's, what's the story here. So if I wanted to make, for example, I want to make my dad proud. So I'm like, the story is like, if I succeed in the corporate world, then my dad will be proud. If my dad is proud, then I'll be happier. And it's like, I just, if you shine awareness on, on these stories and if you, what I mean by shining awareness on these stories, I mean, like giving space to them, to like, look at them, the story like that, my dad will be want.
[00:56:59] My dad's proud. Life will be better. It's like, it's not true. It's just fundamentally untruth. There's not truth there. My dad just wants me to be expressed and happy. That's the truth. And if I'm living in a way that's not leading to that, That's proving that story's false. So there's one by one by one. I just go to the core of these stories, ask myself, are they true?
[00:57:21] Is it really true? Could you go in,
[00:57:23] Host: could you tell me a little bit more about this looking at aspect of it, this kind of pulling it up and, and sitting with it and that like, what are you like? Yeah. What happens there and what have you refined that process to?
[00:57:37] Guest: Um, so this is a, this is, this is like self-inquiry one-on-one and, um, it helps, and this practice builds self intelligence and self intelligence increases.
[00:57:50] Your consciousness, increases your ability to understand what's what's really going on, why you're doing the things that you're doing, right. Self intelligence is where it's at. Um, so to develop self intelligence. So you've got to learn how to self inquire and self-inquiry is basically the art of asking a question with your mind and letting something else reply.
[00:58:13] So asking a question with your mind, like, why don't I do this? And then sitting in a silent space in a meditative space and allowing the answer to emerge from the core of your being. So it's not like mind having a conversation with mind. It's like mind having asking you a question and heart answers it.
[00:58:32] You know, this is my, this is the way that I self acquire them. That might sound a little bit philosophical and vague. So I'll try and like give it some more body. Um, it's a simple process of me asking questions of myself, right? For example, today I've been asking myself the question I've been going through a process myself, and I've been feeling some pain and some suffering.
[00:58:56] And then I, an inquiry that I asked myself today is who is in suffering, who is in suffering. And so I sat with this question. I went into meditation, I took the questions, my meditate. And I S I returned in my meditation. I returned to the essence that I truly am the ne the personality I returned to, to, to my true self.
[00:59:19] And in my true self, there was no suffering, no suffering. There's a completeness and wholeness. And so the answer to the question much, it's like, nothing is suffering. The suffering is just a story. The suffering is just a story it's just created by a story because I'm not actually suffering. The suffering is just created by a story of suffering.
[00:59:40] That's something hasn't met an expectation. So the way that our, this is an interesting thing that I've been exploring, so the ego, and I've done it, it's really good to get to know how your, your ego mind, I use the words, personality and ego mind kind of interchangeably. Right. Um, but this, this ego mind it.
[01:00:06] It can only, it only operates in the realms of past and future. It bought bits, skips over presence, and this is why presence is the practice. Yeah. So it skips over present, present moment, reality like that the ego mind cannot actually exist in the light of the present moment. That's the truth. So what happens is that a story is created in the past.
[01:00:29] So say that you say that Johnny, the school bully stole your sandwiches when you're at school at seven years old. So you've got an assault or, or an offense that's happened. And so that there's a Genesis of a story there it's like, it might be, I'm not deserving or eating food, or it might be all people called Johnny and dickheads or whatever it is.
[01:00:49] There's something there that happens. Right? So past event, what happens now because the ego can't actually deal in the present monument, it just like projects into the future. So it takes this past event and it like projects like a projector screen. And creates this, this future reality, this future reality might be like me never eating my sandwiches or me starving or, or me getting like bullied by Johnny.
[01:01:13] But if I don't give him my sandwiches or whatever it is, and this is of course is, is happening like, like all the time. And with every single event that happens in our life, they, their ego is doing this. There you, he goes creating a story and a projection. So what ends up happening is that we have these original.
[01:01:34] Versions of stories. It might in the actual experience of the story, Johnny is a bad person and he's mean, and he's hurt me. And I'm now the victim. It might, it might just happen that if I were to be able to look at this event from a more holistic viewpoint, that Johnny is actually starving, or Johnny has mistaken, mistaken his lunch from my lunch or Johnny, Johnny's got some sort of mental disorder or Johnny just really needs to eat my sandwiches to help him today, whatever it is.
[01:02:03] But I don't know that back then. So instead of created this story of like bad, right, and this story of bad, which has as projected onto the future to create a potential scenario of badness, right. This happens all the time, all the time. Right. To give you another example, um, maybe you're getting to know, uh, a woman for the first time and she's, um, and you're relating together and she's like speaking to.
[01:02:32] Ex-boyfriend over there and your mind might create this. You've got this story in your head. Oh, she's speaking to her. Ex-boyfriend and they look like they're flirting and, oh, this is bad. This is threat. So the, so the ego creates this projection of this story of the worst case scenario. And it might be them rolling together in bed.
[01:02:52] It might be them creating happy families, but essentially it's some sort of story, some sort of projection that challenges your core ideas of what makes you safe and secure in life. Right? It just challenges all of them. So you end up in suffering, you end up suffering. So the ego puts you into suffering because now you've taken something that was potentially really innocuous and neutral, right.
[01:03:18] That and original event. And you've created a none neutral, very charged potential reality. That is completely delusioned based. It's completely, th it's got no grounding in reality. It's completely. Non-truth. It's. Right. We take it to be true. That's what fuels all jealousy, by the way, it's taking it to be true that this might happen.
[01:03:40] All jealousy is just that. And so all of a sudden we're trapped and we're living in suffering and we have a fear of this thing happening. And so my process has been to get to the source of these things and be like, well, is this the original story? True. Yeah. Cause you're on
[01:03:58] Host: your guard. You're kind of making it true by believing it in a sense.
[01:04:01] And that's moving in through your system, into every one of your motor functions and then you're, you're creating, you're moving into that. So it's like, yeah. Sorry. Keep going with what you were saying, but you're checking if it's true, right?
[01:04:17] Guest: Yeah. So my basic process is to look at what's unfolded and notice the story that's been created by my mind.
[01:04:26] For example, my partner is speaking to the ex-boyfriend is. To me and she's, whatever it is, she's going to sleep with them or blah, blah, blah. And then I'm like, okay, I look at that. And I, and I ask myself in a very centered, neutral place. So I come out of reactivity. I come out of my mind, like come into my body.
[01:04:49] This is very key because then when you're in that reactive state and it's like, you're just operating from such a judgmental limited band of consciousness. And everything's going to be a threat when you're activated and your ego. But when you come into a neutral place of know, unactivated your presence, you can perceive reality more clearly.
[01:05:06] It sounds
[01:05:06] Host: like a place of curiosity. It sounds like a spot where you're like, okay, you're exactly. It sounds like there's even like this there's something that happens where it's like the moving from into that from the reaction into the curiosity is something about that, that I think
[01:05:25] Guest: the curiosity puts you into the mystery into the wonder.
[01:05:27] And so the infiniteness yeah. But curiosity puts you into the truth of that is a mystery that is unknowable, that it's unknown, that it hasn't yet unfolded that's. So curiosity brings you
[01:05:40] Host: back where you are really brings you into the present. Exactly.
[01:05:44] Guest: Yeah. Out of delusion. That's right. So it is a cue. It is, curiosity is a powerful portal to truth.
[01:05:52] And that's what self-inquiry is fueled by. Otherwise you wouldn't inquire because you want be curious. Yeah. It's like definitely the energy of curiosity. Then you look at the future projection and you're like, look at what my ego has done. Like eventually you can get to the stage of having a good old giggle, get a laugh about it.
[01:06:11] And this is what me and my friends and the people that I work with love doing. We love bringing the projections that are limited scarcity based Fairborn minds of put onto the canvas of the future. And as a process of liberation. And just bloody good humor. Me and my friends and my lovers and people that I'm with, like, to like on earth, this stuff.
[01:06:34] Yeah. Great practice.
[01:06:35] Host: Or it's like allows you to be vulnerable as well, allows you to kind of just, you know, share these things that, you know, we've all got a different remix of within us and that are expressed in different like scenarios, but it's within all of us and it's like, there's nothing to be kind of ashamed of.
[01:06:50] It's nice being vulnerable with others and yeah, I'm sure. Um, I'm sure that'd be some funny stories in there. Like moments of sharing, you know, as well.
[01:07:04] Guest: Totally man. So that's, you know, that's, I can go deeper into that and another time and, and for, you know, people that work with me, it goes, it goes a lot deeper in exploring the somatics and exploring how stories can, um, or experiences can manifest as trauma and learning how to honor and celebrate all that it's happened and to release somatically through breathwork vibration sound movement, all sorts of different ways, but that's, you know, that's the basics of self-inquiry are what I just described.
[01:07:34] And so I used that process to uncaged myself from this very limited life that I was living, where I was making a lot of money, but I was feeling very unfulfilled and very dead. And so I freed myself and I've just been wonderful, free and expressed and liberated in the last 10 years since I left the corporate.
[01:07:56] Has just been this unfolding mythic reality of me just creating a beautiful future and attracting in all the people and opportunities that my soul desires to help me expand and contribute. And I've been going
[01:08:09] Host: on over the last 10 years. I had to be questioned, but like what happened after that point? I want to hear the rest of it.
[01:08:14] Like, it feels like you're only part partway
[01:08:15] Guest: through. Yeah. So, yeah, so I, I left the corporate world, Hong Kong, moved to Bali two years. They're just like really defragged and restored and healed myself and just came to the center. And from that point I began to really, really, really awaken like awakened to the truth of, of what I really am.
[01:08:39] And it's, um, I didn't get to, I'm not an awakened being, I'm still in suffering a lot of the time and I'm still in delusion a lot of the time and my ego, like hoodwinks me all the time and I'm still processing and going through it all all the time. It's uh, and I. The thing is, is that I'm consciously doing it.
[01:08:58] I'm consciously aware of what's happening at the moment. So basically I, I began, um, after those times and Bali, I, I had such profound breakthroughs on, on, in my own life and began to realize like all the ways in which I had been, um, brainwashed and domesticated and infused with all these belief systems that were not originally.
[01:09:22] And so as I began to sort of like cleanse myself of all of this, my natural essence began to emanate itself. And naturally I became like a playful, inquisitive, joyful, loving human being. And so naturally I began to attract other people like that into my field. And naturally I began to want to express myself in greater ways because it's just natural because that's just what our beings want to do when they don't have this condom on that we call our personalities.
[01:09:49] So they just want to like express themselves. Um, that's the way it analogy. Um, we had metaphor, we had image. Um, but you get what I mean? So that's what I began to do. And. I just began to see life as a great dance. And I began to share my medicine with people. And eventually I started this company called the flow state collective.
[01:10:10] And, and this is when stuff began to accelerate in an awesome way, because I had a platform, a podcast. I had a methodology, a way of working with people to help them cut to the core of truth and presence.
[01:10:22] Host: Right. What's the process of developing that method methodology like in those early days.
[01:10:28] Guest: Yeah. And there's early days, I was obsessed with this thing called flow flow states.
[01:10:32] Um, you might've come across it in your research or, you know, I'm sure all of us have experienced flow, but in those early days I was as a surfer and a snowboarder and a psychonaut someone that enjoyed working with psychedelics and plant medicines and going into trance states and altered states of consciousness, whether that's in surfing or whether that's on a dance floor or whether that's in a shamonic ceremony.
[01:10:52] I was very inclined to explore consciousness in those ways. So. When I started reading about the science of flow states, which is basically the science of it is rooted in psychology. This psychologist called me highly checked, sent me high as did the original research on it. It's all very kind of like academic.
[01:11:10] Um, but basically they realized that human beings were not happy when they had X, Y, and Z, but they were actually happy when they were immersed in action activity and they were extra happy when they are immersed in an activity that had meaning to them. Um, and so many, many things books have been written to describe that process and what happens in the brain, what happens in the body when a human enters into a state of flow.
[01:11:33] So I became obsessed with all of that because I just come from the corporate world. And I saw that all of these highly domesticated, really intelligent, beautiful beings who are trapped in skyscrapers and suits. Um, I felt like I felt an urge to help them break free. And I knew that. From my experience with conversations with so many of them, I knew that they wanted the language of rationality and science to get that.
[01:12:02] Yeah. So I saw flow states as a Trojan horse, this language, it was so clear and neuroscientific, I saw it as a Trojan horse to help a human being actually be like, okay, I can absolve that. You can keep your shocker shit and you fucking bottles and whistles. And crystal, you say that. Yeah. A lot of states I'm interested in.
[01:12:19] Yeah. I can absorb that. I can, I can talk about transient hypofrontality and an alpha brainwaves and so forth. So I was like, all right. I saw flow states is like spiritual experience in science clothing, you know, it's. Okay. A human being and a red bull sponsored athlete. Who's like entered a state of flow.
[01:12:40] He's just in the same state of consciousness as a, as a monk 2000 years ago, or, or a mistake sitting, sitting under a tree. There's a, it's the correlation between sort of meditative transcendent states and flow states. So massive. In other words, the commonality is that when you're in a flow state or a meditative state, the parts of your brain, in which a housed your sense of self by your ego and your sense of linear time creates that linearity, that sort of like, um, um, logic based kind of non mythical reality that I spoke to before.
[01:13:18] They're all in the same part of the brain. Right. And that part of the brain basically turns off or partially turns off down-regulates when I read this, it was just like the biggest penny drop ever. It was like, oh my God. It's like, you got. You know, these, these skiers and snowboarders and people talking about flow states, and you got these entrepreneurs trying to hack the flow state and getting into micro-dosing and doing Kanban or like time boxing, all these different ways of trying to like, get into it.
[01:13:49] Yeah. But actually there's really ancient modalities for this, like the shamans drum, you know, or like theory, which is the indigenous word for like deep listening, like listening to nature, listening to the birds or vision questing sitting in, or like working with sacred sacraments, like plant medicines, like there's so many different ways.
[01:14:11] Um, and so I became, I became obsessed with that nexus of science and spiritual pathways. And that was my, that is my playing ground. And so I began to run these experiences where we'd go snowboarding in Japan or surfing in the Maltese and I'd sell out these retreats and get people coming along and we had experienced flow and we'd approach it through the science.
[01:14:32] Frame was like, okay, we need to increase the challenge level for your skill level. We need to work on focus. We need to create this and that. And we had to tweak it on that kind of level, which suited that kind of like the best cerebral consciousness. But at the same time, there was an infusing of deepest spiritual wisdom by holding space for these human beings to become really present in the moment and to be able to be vulnerable and to just, just take off the armor that obscured the divinity and the purity of that essence.
[01:15:04] And so we began to have these sort of this yin yang of like science and spirit, which eventually just fuses into oneness. Right. And so that was the Genesis of, of my work with flow state. And from that I began to get, um, like people requesting that I work with them and to, to help. Transcend, um, limitation.
[01:15:23] And some, sometimes it was people saying, Hey, I'm a, I'm a CEO of a company. And I, and I need help, like being a pipping, a higher performer, because the challenge level is just increased that much. It's like, all right. So I've worked with CEOs of billion dollar companies for the last five or six years, and yeah, sure.
[01:15:40] I've helped them become really high performing CEOs. I think some of the highest performing CEOs on the planet, but it's not through teaching them how to hack the flow state is by actually teaching them how to come back home to what they really are and to live and express and show up and lead from that place.
[01:15:56] So that's been my work. And then after a while of coaching and mentoring and developing these frameworks, I, I heard the call to, I began spending time with more indigenous people in south America, central America, Australia. And I began to realize that this culture, that we're a part of is fucked in so many different ways, excuse my language.
[01:16:19] And. I began to be very receptive to the ancient wisdom of indigenous cultures, especially ones that lived in coherence with natural patterns.
[01:16:29] Host: How did you move into that space of, of, of being around those communities and, um, tapping into that knowledge and just tapping into that presence with them
[01:16:40] Guest: just might've happened, like, like began reading about, um, indigenous perspectives or worldviews, and then began like manifesting it, projecting, like making it happen, sticking it out.
[01:16:53] Yeah. And asking questions and finding experiences. And I ended up, um, spending time with shamans from, in, in a few different places in the world and spending time with, with Marvin in Northeast Arnhem land and in Australia, like from a tribe that's been around for hundreds of thousands of years. And they're still singing the same song.
[01:17:15] Same. Yeah, man, that was one of us. Stretching experiences of my life. So like to be with human beings that, um, uh, so, so, so, so different that it's actually, you can only relate to them when you drop out of your personhood and you come into your hot and you just become a being. That's the only way I could relate with these humans, but it was, it was challenging on many fronts because I could see these humans as part of this culture that truly lived in belonging with the earth.
[01:17:54] And to see that, to honor that, to be like, wow, you guys have been going for hundreds of thousands of years and you have, you have a way of living that is not extractive, but it's regenerative and you have a way of living that passes down wisdom and knowledge and helps human beings evolve and become mature.
[01:18:12] And it was such a stark contrast to my experience of being part of this sort of like Western culture where there's, uh, there seem to be,
[01:18:24] shit's got out of hand. And so it was, it was actually like in, it was acceler exhilarating and terrifying at the same time, it was like exhilarating because it was like, oh my God, there's a template for people who are doing it. We don't need to like remake the wheel. Like people are doing it already. I mean, doing it for a hundred thousand years, but at the same time, it was like terrifying in a kind of like existential way in the sense of like, oh my God, we are, so we've gone.
[01:18:50] So off the rails, I think the wheel
[01:18:52] Host: needs to be remade though. And the bridge needs to come into being between like what you were mentioning before that these ancient ways and this new language of being that's, that's kind of existing at the moment, this language of kind of, um, that Western paradigm. And I think that bridge is very important and there's like that that work is significant.
[01:19:17] Guest: Oh, the bridge is important. I don't think we need to remake the whale because the whales that w what I'm referring to the whale is timeless
[01:19:24] Host: total truth,
[01:19:26] Guest: but bridges, yeah. That's a different story. We need, we need bridge bridges, like an archetype of human being that they're like a modern, uh, they are very, we need all of our bridges.
[01:19:38] Bridges are the ones that can bridge different worlds, um, of understanding can like, can, can absorb the wisdom, whether it's in deep ecology or anthropology or indigenous, like understanding how to ceremonies and being able to bridge it and bring it to a different crowd and help that be a flow of mutual understanding across like, through storytelling.
[01:20:00] Right. That makes sense.
[01:20:02] Host: Yeah. And so, so you, uh, you were with you're spending time with these guys and it was like, this sounds like a very profound experience and an opening one where you had some, some date realizations and some connections that happened.
[01:20:16] Guest: Yeah. And these guys, they, these, these, these people are, you know, th th the biggest difference if you're ever asked to compare, and this is hard to like distill down because the differences are just replayed.
[01:20:27] But the biggest difference is that, um, domesticated urbanized, Western humanity is living in non congruence with the earth, with nature. And this particular mob we're living in congruence and with harmony and with a deep awareness of nature that we're living as, as one with nature, they were living in this web of belonging where that the Eagle was their relative and the amoebas, their relative, and the, that the, the koalas that ancestor, or, you know, that are actually like in this web of belonging, it's not just made up.
[01:20:58] Like they actually. Feel like they're in this web of belonging, whereas you've got like wasted things. Yeah. It makes it real. Whereas Western human beings are like, even the fact that we have a word called nature, what the fuck does nature mean? Like everything is nature, but we have this word to actually say I'm going into nature.
[01:21:17] Host: Yeah. It shows you how even language is. Or the English language especially is like formed in a way that has this already yet all this separation built into the system of things. And it's like, where we're speaking those words and it's like, we're, we're acting from that kind of, uh, a place all the time.
[01:21:36] Through those through words, words are powerful, man. Like I, yeah, just speaking, I've noticed actually speaking words out loud, it's like, there's something really powerful about that. Something that, that makes it, you're bringing your, your S you're speaking something into being that wasn't there before.
[01:21:55] And it's different from just thinking it's a different thing. I don't know. It's a strange thing for me. It's something I'm just kind of on the fringes of exploring,
[01:22:02] Guest: but voice to something you'll creating something, you're creating a reality through language. So our reality, our Western reality is, is, is very much created by the way that isle verbs and adjectives and, and things are organized in a way that creates separation.
[01:22:18] And example of this is that there's in Australia, there's like 200, 300 different indigenous languages in not in, not one of them. Is there a word for possession
[01:22:31] Host: as in like,
[01:22:33] Guest: yeah. As in like that's mine, that doesn't exist. So think about how that was shaped consciousness. So I go up to Arnhem land. I'm hanging out with these, with these men and I'm like, oh, Hayes, he's the guy that's taken me under his wing.
[01:22:45] I'm going to get him some tobacco. But this concept of mine doesn't exist in the consciousness of this human being that I've gifted, this tobacco. So really I've just gifted the tobacco to all of them. And that's what actually happens. He disseminates amongst his crew because he doesn't have this concept of mine.
[01:23:03] Right. Think about that. How that ripples out, how growing up without this concept of mine, like, think about that. That changes everything, everything, it changes like that they won't have in them this capacity to possess, to own, to control, to dominate, to conquer, to conquest over an overall, a wife or husband or a piece of land.
[01:23:30] It's not in them without that, that word. Fascinating. They also don't have words for time, like linear time. Yeah. Fascinating. So think about how that shapes our consciousness as well. Clock time, six o'clock, three o'clock it's like all of a sudden we're putting these markers. What is like fluid and infinite and it's
[01:23:54] Host: it's and they've got, they've got more seasons as well.
[01:23:58] Then they like don't they have like, you know, I dunno this isn't an example, like the last falling or something, or they have like different ways. And there's all these different seasons rather
[01:24:07] Guest: than lot of the different seasons, about hundreds of different words for rain, different types of rain and this, and you'll see in any wet languages, a hundred different words of snow, because there's so much more subtleness.
[01:24:22] Yeah. There's so much more awareness telling the story. Yeah. How could you use that one word to describe so many different like phenomenon? Yeah. Yeah. So
[01:24:30] Host: it seems like that's yeah, that's kind of carried across the whole theme of the conversation. Really? It's this like the richness of the details within.
[01:24:39] Guest: So just to get back to the story, I, I came back from Arnhem land, completely transformed, and, and I had this, this knowing that, um, that the most important thing for me and for all life on earth is for human beings to come back into belonging, a true, authentic sense of belonging with all life, as opposed to non belonging, which is existential angst, which is separation, which is aloneness and loneliness, which characterizes the human Western condition to a large degree.
[01:25:08] And we see it in the stress and the suicide and the statistics of what's going on. So this belonging, it got this, this, like, knowing that belonging is what is what counts, but along end gets homeless, right? Belonging. Belonging is the, is the state of being one with all of life, right. I began to dedicate myself to evoking that sense of belonging in other humans.
[01:25:37] And so, um, this is where I began working in with, with nature, more deeply and wild places and ancestral skills, learning, fire, making fire, like friction and shelter building about that
[01:25:50] Host: last night. I really want to start a fight with sticks. Like I've seen about last night, that would be the nicest feeling.
[01:25:55] Imagine doing that. Wow.
[01:25:58] Guest: Why would it be such a nice feeling? Why, why is it nicer than using a
[01:26:03] Host: that's a great question out. Dunno. It feels like I've, there's been some there's been it's, it's completely natural in the sense of, like you said, everything's natural and everything's nature, but in the sense of like, you're working kind of with nature, you've got this gift to create the fire with this, these, these some ingredients, I guess.
[01:26:23] And there's like this, I guess for me personally, and this is just speaking for me. Um, I've had a bit of an issue with starting my fires. Um, I'm very good at getting them raw. Um, in a unique way, but it's just very difficult for me to get them going without help. So I think there will be something within me that is like a process that go, that I'll go through by learning to start with a fire, with a couple of sticks.
[01:26:51] And, and there's something about the effort that's put in. And then, um, this, this creation, this working with, um, this, this evoking, this it's almost like a magical spell that's been created. That creates a thing that then, you know, warms and gives back, um, all these kinds of reasons come up for me anyways, but I'm sure there's many, many more
[01:27:15] Guest: that's right.
[01:27:16] That's all really beautiful. Like my, we lead these expeditions where men come along and we, one of the things that we do is we all make fire with our hands with sticks and bow drill. What happens is a, it's a, it's a very, it's a very mystical thing that happens because we're talking about. Like just, just for a moment, let's just drop into what fire actually is and symbolizes.
[01:27:43] It's like it has the power to give life and to warm up and to nourish. And it has the power to take life, to kill and destroy. It is the power to regenerate soil and forest to be responsible for learning. And it has the path to like disseminate and destroy the forest as well. That's something God like in the power of fire, right?
[01:28:06] It's pure death. It's destruction and creation. That's what fire represents. This is why all animals have a relationship with fire. Right? You'll see it. When the fires are going, they you'll see kangaroos and wildlife. They know what's going on. They know what this symbolizes and stands for. Right. And so our answers.
[01:28:27] Who knows how many thousand years ago, first of all, using Flint probably to create a spot and then eventually using more advanced technology of frictions and drill bow drill began to embody this divine power of creating fire in responsible ways. And there's a sacredness to that. There's a sacredness to it.
[01:28:50] So what happens when, when man makes fire in an, in a sort of raw way that uses his body and uses like something primal, like tools sticks and things, rather than just this convenient button, what happens is that the man naturally drops into the sacredness and the ritual of what's going on. What's the profundity of what's going.
[01:29:15] It's like, ah, I am creating fire. It's like coming through my, through my being through, through my hands. And the end result is me birthing an EMBA. And that Ember is going to be blown up into flames and those flames contain great power, great spirit. And this is what my ancestors have been doing for a hundred thousand of years.
[01:29:38] And so there's so much
[01:29:40] Host: going on. Yeah. Because the real connection through the ancestral lineage and the, and the, the collective unconscious, even deep within the kind of, you know, since the beginning of man, really, or since the beginning of man making fires. So there's this like, and it's like, yeah. And fires is such a miracle.
[01:30:00] Aren't they like, like, I think there's all these little miracles that we just don't even realize that like, what the hell is a fire? Like, think about it. You know what I mean? Like, yeah.
[01:30:10] Guest: Yeah. And it's you notice how all humans. Love of fire and kids, kids will be transfixed by fire. And what you'll often see is humans with this rare ability to just stare at the fire, but you could have the most distracted humans on earth who had, but they're just transfixed by this fire.
[01:30:36] You know, they call it like cowboy TV, you know, it's just like, and it's a, it's a really amazing thing. And it's because what, the way that I've experienced I've I've inquired. Why is that? Why is that? Yeah, it's because, you know, if you, if you study a little bit of like gene theory and epigenetics and you, and you realize how much memory is stored in our DNA and it's passed on and passed on a pasta, and then you think about the role of fire has played in the lives of our ancestors.
[01:31:07] So it will for cooking food, the creating that sense of home and nurturance and say, And you think about the role that is played in the lives of all our ancestors and how fire is therefore becoming encoded into their genetics. Right. And then passed on generation after generation after generation. No wonder when someone lights a fire we're like hooked into it.
[01:31:32] It's like so deeply wired into our being that it is a good thing. That it's a nourishing thing that it's a warm thing. Oh, that is a dangerous thing. Also that's, uh, you know, there's a responsibility required. That's my, that's been my experience of it. It's like this popping up of ancestral memories. Um,
[01:31:52] Host: yeah.
[01:31:53] That's beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that. And just kind of thinking about this journey that we've just been on and, and the kind of like bringing all of this into like, so you've, you've gone through kind of your beginnings with, um, your mother and, and, and, and the religion. Um, Moment you said, and then I was witness Jehovah's witness, sorry.
[01:32:15] And then moving into, um, the
[01:32:18] Guest: pan corporate world
[01:32:20] Host: corporate world. And then we kind of visited this news, this new, this rebirth in JIRA and this new space and time with the elders and that, that kind of the resonance of that, of that time, that a profound effect. And then now it seems like, yeah, this is radiating outwards and sharing kind of, it's a beautiful story, man.
[01:32:42] Is it like what's so what's going on if we bring it right to this, like what's going on now in the, in the here and now with like, um, in, in these days and, and, um, yeah, like what, what are you up to and stuff? Cause, cause it seems like I'm getting a real liberated feeling from you. Like a freedom is, is emanating out from your being, which is, it's a refreshing dude.
[01:33:04] Guest: Yeah. Um, um, Devoted to freedom. Um, so much so that four months ago I made the choice to end the marriage that I was in. And, and, uh, because I saw how, um, not that marriage compromise freedom, just that this particular marriage compromise my freedom. Um, so I ended that, so yeah, there is a, there is a freedom that, um, that I'm exploring in old, I mentioned, but yeah, there's a great freedom in my work as well.
[01:33:30] Essentially. I just do what feels is my truth and what is my calling and my purpose and my mission. And this is, it's a very, non-stop I take a very non-strategic approach to my work. Um, I simply just like give it the way that it works now is that I, I support about 40 humans across the world through, through mentoring.
[01:33:53] Um, so I'm very passionate about mentoring, which is different from coaching and, um, It's a softer, more dialogue based approach of, of holding up mirrors and creating a container with a truth. That's right. Yeah. So I, I'm in a mentoring process with a bunch of humans from across the world. I run a, a men's program.
[01:34:13] Um, it's a launch pad for spiritual growth and, and also, um, business success. That's, um, regenerative and purpose-driven, that's called Shambala warrior. So I, some of my time is allocated towards that. I also lead these vision quests and expeditions into the wilderness. I work with some of the plant medicines, um, and I spend vast amounts of time in nature, myself, surfing, playing guitar, taking myselves on my own journeys.
[01:34:43] Um, and, um, and in the background, man, a colleague preparing to launch this new business, this new offering called the brotherhood of man. Yeah. So it's going to be a platform for, for modern day men's work. Basically men have gathered together, um, forever hunting parties, taking them, wooly, mammoth, whatever, whatever, but in our culture, brotherhood has kind of been reduced to like sports teams and, and getting together on a Friday night to sync a few beers.
[01:35:18] Um, and there's a element it's profane that there's not much sacredness imbued in it. Um, and at the same time, we seem to be living through a crisis where a disproportionate amount of men are killing themselves. And there's shocking statistics on stress and suicide. And basically it's confusing. Like how do I be a man?
[01:35:36] Like what is it to be a man? Um, so I'm passionate about, um, doing something about that and helping men, um, experience. What it is to be a man, not through any concept, but through a natural emergence of, of their essence. So brotherhood of man is going to be a business. That's going to have a, you know, experiences and mentoring programs, but also a podcast that's going to be launching in the next month.
[01:36:01] Host: Exciting times.
[01:36:02] Guest: Yeah.
[01:36:03] Host: Yeah. Anything I could do to support that, besides sharing this conversation and getting the message out for you, let me know, dude. Cause I'd love to help you kind of get that blasted off. I know it's, that's a, it's an, it sounds like a beautiful thing and exciting times.
[01:36:19] Guest: Thank you so much.
[01:36:20] Yeah.
[01:36:22] Host: Yeah. And yeah, I, it's probably a good place to kind of tie things off. I feel like we've had a really engaging conversation and I really think that the, you know, again, I want to share my appreciation with you and being with people listening, like there's plenty in here to kind of work with them.
[01:36:39] And, um, you know, like we said earlier about this idea of truth being. Being able to kind of sit into the space in our lives where it's needed most that at wherever we're, wherever we are, you know, and I think there's been a lot of truth shed in this, in this conversation. And again, like it's fairly thank you for that.
[01:36:59] Guest: It's a pleasure. Thank you for the questions and the inquiries.
[01:37:06] Host: Thank you for tuning into this episode of the today dreamer podcast. Hopefully you've found something within it that will allow you to deepen your practice of presence and cultivate that within your own life. As always, if you'd like more information on the guest or their work. Please head over to the today dreamer website today, dream.com or check out the show notes or to the description section, wherever you're engaging with this.
[01:37:35] And there'll be some links to that. Wonderful and inspiring work there. If you'd like to deepen your connection with me with the show, by showing your support and helping me keep this is project this intention alive. Then please consider joining the today. Dream a tribe by heading over to patrion.com forward slash today.
[01:38:00] Dreamer where you can pledge a small amount every month. And in return, you will get certain perks depending on the mountain you pledge, including exclusive podcast episodes, videos. Video chats with me or group Hangouts in supportive space where we can really look at meaningful action and support one another in this process of being doing and dreaming.
[01:38:30] Thank you so much. That's all for me. And I will catch you in the next episode, in the meantime,
[01:38:37] Guest: be well.