Opportunity within suffering
There is an opportunity within suffering. Our experiences in life aren't always filled with sunshine and warmth, there are days when we will suffer. But we can take suffering as an opportunity for us for growth. As we live in integrity and practice ethical living, we are better able to experience life. In this new podcast episode, Daniel Thorson talks about suffering, growth, and ethical living. Along with that, he shares with us about Willow Monastic Academy and what they do there.
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Opportunity within suffering
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Daniel Thorson
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[00:00:00] Host: Hello, and welcome to the today. Dream a podcast, a conversational space where we explore what developing the practice of presence in our lives looks and feels like in order to more wholly and fully participate in the blossoming of the emergent world story together, today's guest is Daniel . I'll tell you a little bit about Daniel before we get into things.
[00:00:29] So Daniel is the creator of the emerge making sense of what's next podcast and a monastic at the monastic academy, Vermont. So Mayport is the monastic academy for the preservation of life on earth. And they've done some absolutely amazing work that I encourage you to check out through their YouTube channel or website.
[00:00:53] So Daniel and his podcast have been a great inspiration. In my life. And I also would like to point you in that direction, if you feel connected to what shared here today. So I think that's all just before we do begin, I would like to invite you to take a moment with me of pause, coming into a state of presence by like we doing every episode, just by slowly closing your eyes.
[00:01:25] And there's an invitation to, as slowly as you possibly can take one or two inhalations in through the nose, taking a moment to pause and just kind of explore for a brief moment of time, what that feels like, what that, what the subtleties of that space.
[00:01:53] And whenever you may be ready, It's an invitation to just let, go and release as you exhale just slowly and gracefully on the way out was in for a brief moment at the bottom, and then repeating the process one or two more times to get
[00:03:02] and whatever feels right on your next exhale. At some point, it may be nice to synchronize the gentle opening of your eyes with
[00:03:18] the lower limit. So your out-breath remaining in this state of openness and presence. As we move into this chat with Daniel
[00:03:43] Um, I was just doing like a little meditation before we connected just now. And I was just trying to feel into it. It began. And what might be a nice place to start. And I started really feeling, I guess, just into this moment and quite a strong feeling of heaviness came about. Um, and I think it's a combination of things, but I think part of it is kind of going over just in preparation for our chat, some of the previous conversations you've had in a lot of what you've shared on the emerge podcast.
[00:04:24] And there's a sense of, yeah. And a lot that's kind of mixed in to the cauldron with what's currently going on in my life as well. Um, and I guess in everyone's life, and then there's at the same time, a feeling of like a lightness of spirit and, and a confidence there as well. And I just felt like it was.
[00:04:51] Unusual that the two were kind of sitting next to one another and just hanging out. Um, so I thought maybe that might be a place to begin. How does that feel on your end?
[00:05:09] Guest: Yeah, it resonates. I think, um,
[00:05:15] there's something about the
[00:05:24] time that we're in the planetary crisis, the way in which I perceive us to be kind of headed towards or hanging off a precipice, that's both like unbelievably heavy, like heavier than my consciousness can really comprehend at most times. But that is itself a doorway into a kind of lightness of being, and those seem to coexist and almost mutually afford each other in this mysterious way.
[00:06:00] And so I hear you speaking, there's a kind of like mysterious intermingling of those two in me.
[00:06:10] Host: Yeah. Yeah. I've just, yeah, it's just, it seems like things have just gotten a lot more intense pretty quickly and, and it's, it's like not slowing down anytime soon, if anything, it might be speeding up and there's this theme I, I recognized or a pattern within what you've been sharing and it's a sense of among other things.
[00:06:40] The, this kind of like a calling to move into some, something new, but there's also like, I can see this within myself, like almost like, uh, a difficulty there, or I like some friction, um, that, that is that I'm in the process of working through. Um, I noticed when you, so you, you had, you know, your, your podcasts coming out quite regularly, and then you had a bit of a pause for awhile.
[00:07:11] And that pause kind of took me by surprise. And at the time I didn't really, um, you know, really register the reason or it didn't really resonate as much as it does now. And the sense of like, you know, is, are my behaviors in alignment with, you know, this calling and how could they be more in alignment?
[00:07:37] Yeah. In that kind of a space at the moment. Um, I've just kind of, I'm sitting with some, some difficulty, I guess, cause my mother, just my mother's in hospital at the moment and there's like a, there's like a 50, 50 chance of survival according to the doctors and it's this really kind of, and it seems to match, you know, if I think of the mother as in mother earth, in a sense, there seems to be some kind of a matching there and there's a, there's been a real kind of yeah.
[00:08:14] Chaotic journey in that space has been lasting. Now it's been a few weeks. Um, so it's like happening on a couple of different levels for me. And this time, the timing of this chat to seems to be, you know, on point.
[00:08:33] Guest: Yeah. I feel quite tender hearing that. Hmm.
[00:08:43] Yeah, it's, it's, it's a challenge for me because I, I, you know, I, I, I find myself in a really, um, find myself I've, I've, I've made choices that have put myself in a position where I'm surrounded by people at the Monastic academy who are attempting to embrace this simultaneous lightness and heaviness of our situation.
[00:09:10] And, um, from here, it's, uh, it seems to be the case that, that friction that you're experiencing between what you know is worth loving and being, and what is now. The way that you are or the way your life is, is actually exactly the traction that's necessary to be in. And it's like, I remember when I was first hit them and ask academy, I, I, I actually started to like a little podcast before emerge to talk to, sorry.
[00:09:53] Cause I wanted to interview him because he had such a weird kind of heterodox perspective on so many things. And, um, something, I asked him this question, I said like, what would you say, oh God, even it still causes me attention to remembering. I was like, yeah, this is like seven years later. And I said like, what, you know, paraphrasing, like what would you say to somebody who is, um, like stuck in a bullshit job?
[00:10:24] In a place that they don't love surrounded by people that don't really understand what they care about, who can like knows that something more beautiful as possible for themselves in the world, but they have like, they don't actually, they don't know how to move towards it or achieve it. And his response was, it was, it was essentially good.
[00:10:49] They ought to suffer. That is the suffering that clarifies that, which is worth loving is exactly the willingness to be held in that space of tension and discord between my heart's longing and the actuality of my life, that tempers my soul, such that it is prepared to be a vessel. Take me where I'm longing to go with the proper amount of courage, strength, integrity, and, and like, it's like, I now render that, like what I just said, I think is a much more, um, uh, kind way to say it than, than he said, I think he said something like more like, yeah, they should suffer.
[00:11:31] That's that's they should struggle with that and just kind of left it at that. But, um, it's, it's like, I think there's a response to me that just like, I want to honor you for, for both naming that and seeing it that way and bringing that into this conversation. It's.
[00:11:49] Host: Hmm. Yeah. I appreciate that. There's this sense of, yeah, there's a sense of like, almost like there's a signal at play.
[00:12:00] Like it's like a little, Hey, like, and, but there's also this feeling I've been looking into. This is be fear, strange turn, but I've been looking into, uh, the way in which I was. And it was a, it was a Cesarian birth. And there's this sense of I've been connecting that along with other things in my life to this idea of like things needing to get really bad before anything changes, you know, the sense of, um, you know, almost like not having gone through the birth canal, for example, and just things.
[00:12:37] And it just, all of a sudden being taken out of the belly and, um, almost like, um, the ease or the comfort, and then like the sudden change. Um, there's been like some kind of a connection point in terms of, um, I guess feeling like moving through some kind of a birth canal or pushing myself to do that, I guess.
[00:13:03] And I've just, yeah, there's been some kind of a connection there and I've been feeling like there's a sense of, um, Just from, from a collective standpoint. And I've been in discussion with a friend about this recently, this idea of, you know, it seems like at times it seems like change doesn't happen until things are kind of at the last moment.
[00:13:26] And it's like, you've got no other choice. It's like, okay, now you're going to change. And like, it gets me questioning. Does it need to be that way? You know, is there, is there, is there a way to, um, move into that and maybe the questioning itself is moving into it, maybe you speaking to four. Um, so you four hour at that time, maybe in, in a sense that was part of the process, that reflection that he provided.
[00:13:57] Um, but definitely see the truth in that, that kind of having to go through the pain to be able to, um, Get the, get the feedback that this is time to change, or now there's like, you've got no other choice. You need to, you need to do something different. You need to move into this calling because this can't go on anymore.
[00:14:20] Guest: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, certainly on the individual level, like in terms of what my spiritual practice it is, the case that suffering is the teacher fundamentally suffering reveals to me the ways in which I'm clinging and the ways in which I'm not seeing clearly, as long as I have faith, that suffering can be resolved.
[00:14:50] And I wonder the degree to which that's also true for the collective. And indeed, I think it's true in my experience with like organizational design and, and, um, you know, living in and, and, um, designing communities. It's like anything where there is suffering. There's some kind of opportunity for healing, for holing, for deeper understanding.
[00:15:16] Um, that dissonance intention is, is it is R is exactly that, which, um, properly met, reveals more integrity and harmony and truth. Um, and so, you know, depending on how, how, uh, broken our sensors are as individuals or as a collective, there might need to be much more, we might need to upregulate the, the signal of suffering in order for us to actually re constellate ourselves.
[00:15:51] Host: I was going with the whole birthing thing. So it was a sense of almost like, almost like having to train, to put effort in because there was just as an analogy that's like that it's like that wasn't required. So it's the sense of. Yeah. Maybe it's not yeah. The dynamics of how that works. I'm not, you know, um, you know, how much effort the mother puts in versus the child.
[00:16:15] I'm sure it's both.
[00:16:17] Guest: I think I do. I do that. I want to say like, um, it seems to be the case that I see this at, at, at maple, um, that people tend to be either motivated by their suffering or they're motivated by compassion, by longing and love and a desire to be of service. Like, so they're there. And I see that also just in people's stories.
[00:16:39] Like some people, most people probably enter the path so to speak, um, because of some suffering, but there are others who it's purely a curiosity and longing and like, uh, passion and arrows that, that, that opens them. And that kind of is the doorway. So it does seem that there's at least those two. Yeah,
[00:17:03] Host: it's an interesting thing.
[00:17:05] Mentioning doorways and bridges. Cause I'm, I'm just there's I know there's, there's kind of a space of interest there and there's also, there seems to be what you said earlier about this seems to be like a desensitization on, on multiple different levels and, and the process of doing like that bridging or even that seed sprouting is, is an interesting thing for me maybe before people have even gotten to maple.
[00:17:35] Cause I'm sure you've, you've had many experiences with many people, um, on this part of your journey. And, um, I've got a curiosity around, you know, um, doorways or bridges into this space, um, from a desensitized standpoint. And totally, I know you mentioned suffering and compassion. Um, And it, and it's, this almost seems as though in, in, in one sense, it's almost like everyone's going on their own journey through that.
[00:18:11] And it's like not really up to anyone to, you know, um, do anything about it in a way, but then that, that doesn't seem completely right. Because it's not like things it's like we have agency, you know, and there's a sense of maybe creating fertile soil and, you know, handing out some seeds or something, you know?
[00:18:43] Guest: Yeah. I, I, and when I hear you speak to that, it sounds like you're talking about how on the one hand, everybody is kind of on their own journey and there's something sacred about that. And, and. Um, and on the other hand, there's a need for a kind of transformation to take place. And so how do we create a context in which people sort of get turned on to that or something and hold that tension between not wanting to like infringe on people's agency.
[00:19:15] And is that, is that kind
[00:19:16] Host: of, that's kind of the space. Yeah,
[00:19:20] Guest: totally. Yeah. Well, I think this is a lot of where, um, my love and passion for ethics is alive. Right? This is actually something I spoke about in, um, I think that that episode that you mentioned where I kind of like stopped my podcast was, um, the, my sense, my story is that the way that culture shifts is through the revelation and embodiment of emerging values.
[00:19:49] Right? So, so it's really becoming the kind of person. Who can totally embody service to all beings and then like be a beacon for that you will do. And I see this with story, you write it, you just like, he doesn't have to tell you to go to maple. You're just like, you're kind of like a moth, there's like some kind of latent drawing quality to it that just calls you for those who are for those with ears to hear so to speak.
[00:20:20] Um, and so that's more like my, I mean, my dream, my vision, my, my, my kind of like the image that I've long had is of a kind of like signal or, uh, uh, bats, you know, like a, kind of a bad signal radio signal that was so obviously trustworthy that anybody who had the ability to hear it to be like, huh, ah, there it is.
[00:20:47] There's the signal.
[00:20:48] Host: And then, yeah. Yeah, I I've been playing this. I've been thinking about this, this word, like vibration or vibes for quite a while now. And looking at it from a number of different perspectives, um, you know, the atmosphere in a space or, um, you know, the impermanence of the combination of sounds while you're meditating or something that, that one print, um, and you know, all different perspectives.
[00:21:17] And it seems like I'd love to go and get into Willow, um, in a moment, but there's this sense of like, um, harmonization and amplification as well. That takes place when, um, There are multiple spaces in harmony. And I, I went, I went away and spent a bit of time in a monastery earlier this year. And same kind of thing happened.
[00:21:38] I had a glimpse into what you're sharing now, but only for a moment, um, I had a beautiful experience there. And after I came back into this space, I noticed that, you know, instead of trying to, um, you know, help people out, just the way that I was being the space that I was in after that time was doing more than I had ever done before.
[00:22:03] And people were actually saying that to me, they were like, oh, you're actually making me want to change this or that your, the way that you're living is actually encouraging me. And I was like, there seems to be, knowledge is one thing, but then like just the beingness, um, emanates that vibe and allows others to harmonize with that.
[00:22:27] Um, More effortlessly. It's like, like you mentioned, you're, you're drawn to that and it just feels right. Rather than it being something that's going on in your head, like calculation or whatever.
[00:22:38] Guest: Yeah. And I, I believe, and I, um, my experience is that that's true for individuals and it's true for cultures of collectives and yes, I think that's right.
[00:22:51] That's how I see it as well.
[00:22:54] Host: There's this? Yeah, this is
[00:22:57] Guest: yep. And I would, I would add though, you know, it's like, it's also the case that if we have like appropriate conceptual frameworks, uh, that supports us in, um, resonating yes. With, uh, that, which is able to be resonated with in this way. And then also the degree to which we've say, um, Worked through our emotional baggage to put it like in one way will also allow us to be sensitive again, such that we can resonate.
[00:23:33] So it's that, you know, it is in a way that simple, yeah. Just to kind of have there be a resonant signal that others can sort of sync up with, but it also does it's that is supported a lot, I think by, uh, framing it, you know, having a conceptual, philosophical, even metaphysical or ontological framework, like even saying what you just said, you know, that's, there's value in that, in that it, that will help you and listeners see that that is a possible way of relating to experience.
[00:24:03] But then also the, one of the main ways we shut down our ability to be inspired or resonant with like values or beauty, uh, beautiful ways of being that are possible for us is because of, of trauma and, um, the way that, that kind of. Closest us down to being impacted the resonant resonating with, with, with the world and various ways.
[00:24:29] Yeah.
[00:24:30] Host: I'm sure. Yeah. The trauma comes into an, it sounds like what you're saying. There's other elements as well. Like if your, if you're not looking after yourself eating right. Sleeping, right. All that kind of thing. It's almost like there's a signal. And like, what I mentioned is a glimpse of it, but I noticed in my life on this one occasion, but there's also a sense of that signal can die down and it's like, how do we kind of keep beaming that out?
[00:24:56] How do we, you know, have this kind of this ongoing internal cycle happening where we're feeding that and enlivening that. Um, and it seems like if that can take place, this is something I've noticed, and this is all, this is just this, it seems this way. Um, but it seems like if that can take place, um, and. I really believe this is it's, it's a weird thing to say, but it seems like the rest does take care of itself because that's in order and then there's a flow on effect from that.
[00:25:33] So it, and I think we worry about the rest a lot. There's there's like a, how do we do this? Or how does this work? But it seems like if that, that core piece is in place, then an ongoingly, um, uh, putting out that, that bat signal, um, then yeah, that does make a difference. Um, because if, and it's, it's something, I guess it's difficult to measure.
[00:26:01] Um, but it definitely lights up other, um, beacons and they begin to amplify as well. There's seems to be, uh, an ongoing, um, let's say like a contagious effect of some sort in a positive way.
[00:26:17] Guest: Yeah, totally. I agree. Completely. And, um, You know, uh, two things come to mind. One is that, uh, sorry, you, I suppose maybe listeners, uh, for them to know there's the founder and head teacher at the monastic academy where I, I live and work in train.
[00:26:35] And, um, he has said that kind of one way to conceive of the goal of this kind of training is to you see that, uh, there are these people in the world who, uh, are in many cases actually attempting to do the right thing and sort of like heal the world. And then nonetheless, we are hurdling off the edge of a cliff.
[00:27:05] Yeah. So it's like the, the effluent of their being is the destruction of life on earth. The training is to become the kind of person who without any. Without attempting to be of benefit to all beings without attempting to save the world. Th th the affluent, this, the, the, the, the scent that you have is, is that of service and skillfulness.
[00:27:30] And, and it's what, you know, kind of transforms the world in the appropriate way. And, um, this, I think is partly what, like, uh, Nora Bateson and Bonita, Roy, talk about this, uh, who at work, are you familiar with these thinkers in our space? Yeah. They talk, they talk about this possibility of solving all the problems at once.
[00:27:55] Yeah. So this idea of the medic crisis is this like tangle of problems. And it's like this idea that there's a way of being that solves all the problems at once, in a sense, not because it, like, there's all the nuclear warheads are gone, but that.
[00:28:14] Host: Kind of relevant at that point
[00:28:18] Guest: and they'll yeah, I don't, I don't even know how to talk about it, but it, they, they, they I'm like I'm beyond my pay grade of being able to speak about it with words I think.
[00:28:26] But, uh, it, it, it rhymes with what I think, sorry is pointing to that. This is just like, it's natural to a certain way of being to heal the planet. Just like it's natural to a certain mind, a certain pattern of delusion to, uh, destroy life, to transform the beauty of nature into money and numbers. Um Hmm.
[00:28:52] Host: It it's, yeah, it seems like what's coming up for me is this idea of, again, just the glimpse from being in that kind of a different environment that I went to just using this as, as the example, and then almost like, like a sense of inertia that's taken place and.
[00:29:12] Um, almost like a change in the tides, or maybe not necessarily changing tires, but something new coming, something new being that has been born. That's been, um, you know, that's come to life. Um, that, that, that brings a sense of, I don't know if Hope's the right place to sit, but it a sense of faith or something like that.
[00:29:37] Um, and then again, the sense of like, just, it's just, this is like probably a very terrible analogy, but, um, I was thinking about this idea of,
[00:29:52] yeah, that's, it's bad. Um, this, this idea of just like, um, just so much confusion and so much kind of just floating out there. Um, Uh, like children floating out on, on doughnuts in the ocean or something. And, and like, it's almost as if, um, certain choices can push us further out into the ocean and it's a struggle to get closer to the shore.
[00:30:26] And I think what's coming up for me is this maybe like the need for community to help each other moving in the direction that feels the most right in their heart. Um, and again, this amplification. The, the little signals matter as well, all the little signals together and, you know, are important. So yeah, I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but that's kind of, what's coming up this idea of like just the, just the, the environment.
[00:30:56] Cause at the moment, I mean, I'm coming from, from Melbourne Australia and they calling it like the most lockdown city in the world and things are really kind of intense from, from that side of things, sort of it's, uh, it seems like, you know, it's been difficult to get, we've not, not been allowed to get into nature and spend time with mother earth.
[00:31:21] Cause we can't leave. There's been times where we couldn't leave five Columbus from our home and there's all these kinds of restrictions and um, gathering in groups. Um, protests have been made illegal, um, during certain parts of the lockdown and um, you can't visit other people and there's been this real.
[00:31:41] Um, further separation and it seems with a lot of bills that are being passed at the moment and push through that. That's, that's getting more intense. Um, so it, it just, it feels like for me anyways, I feel like I'm in the belly of the beast at the moment. And that there's a, it seems quite different from being in an and I feel like a lot of people would probably in a similar position, um, you know, no matter where they are in the world, they could be in a similar kind of state where they're surrounded by, um, certain forms of distraction or certain things that, um, promote, um, you know, addiction or desire or whatever else.
[00:32:27] There's a sense of like, um, environments, um, or hubs that make it. Very, um, very much easier to connect to that signal. And, um, not easy. I don't think easy is the right word, but it's just, it's conducive for that because you've got the community and you've got people around, you've got the supportive network and you've got maybe an ecology of practices to go through, but I've just got a question about like, yeah, like this question's coming up around the middle of, of, of the belly of the beast and in a sense we're all in that space, you know?
[00:33:06] Um, yeah. Does anything come up for you? When I, when I talk about these environments or these, these kinds of spaces we find ourselves in.
[00:33:22] Guest: Yeah. So a friend of mine, Nathan Vanderpool has. I suppose it's a metaphor. Yeah. A metaphor of, um, ability and difficulty. So I'm referring to like individual skillfulness and the environment, right? So how difficult is the environment to live in harmony, in signal, in a core with that, which is worth loving, um, environments are variably difficult in different ways.
[00:34:04] And then how much ability do you have as an agent to irrespective of environment live in integrity with that, which is worth loving. And, um, you know, they're, in some ways a place like maple is designed to lower the difficulty in some ways, but also raise it and others, but the end goal of. Ideally, and this is very hard to do.
[00:34:30] Of course, making people that are so high skill that they can enter into the belly of the beast and stay in that signal so that they can bend it towards love, even as they walk into the most diluted parts of our world. Um, you know, that's a really hard thing. Like I think part of what one ends up realizing as, you know, either direction either when you like are in a space where it's just horrible to in various ways, like you can't leave your house, you can't see nature.
[00:35:09] Um, or you go into place like a culture and environment. That's just like extremely supportive of beautiful qualities of being you. It, it really threatens the delusion of individuality and the idea that we can kind of like hack. Our way to safety or bow, or like just change our habits in order to kind of become this super human person.
[00:35:33] We actually are totally embedded in our culture and our systems and our environment, our relationships, our food system on, about
[00:35:42] Host: escaping that environment. It's about no, yeah. There's no separate pieces.
[00:35:47] Guest: There's no separate piece. Yeah, yeah,
[00:35:52] Host: yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. And it's yeah, yeah. I get where you're coming from in that space.
[00:35:59] I think I heard you even mentioned this in one of your conversations around, it's almost like, uh, it's, it's kind of, it's insane to think that there is that it is separate, um, to forget about the sense of obligation and responsibility. Yeah. Yeah. I, I say this in my younger self, wanting to kind of, I guess, runaway externally and not realize that there's a sense of like, you could never get away because it's not about the external environment.
[00:36:32] Yeah,
[00:36:33] Guest: totally. Yeah. But the difficulty
[00:36:36] Host: thing still real though, like it's still like
[00:36:39] Guest: super real. Yeah. It's absolutely real. Yeah.
[00:36:43] Host: And there's a sense of, I get frustrated sometimes with this idea of like, when I notice that I can notice myself being taken over by it. I don't like it. And there's a sense of like this kind of, um, yeah, I guess that's another struggle and signal as well to move more into harmony.
[00:37:03] Just it's not comfortable.
[00:37:05] Guest: Yeah. Taken over by what, what, uh, well,
[00:37:08] Host: this sense of like, um, being in, being in this kind of an environment, I feel like, um, And like you mentioned, if you're in the other side where things were a lot easier on one hand, um, it would happen in a different way, but it seems as though there's like, um, like invitations from the environment and, um, habitual motions that have been in place for a long period of time throughout my life.
[00:37:40] Um, like programmings and, um, there's like, I can, I feel when things feel right. It, it just feels, it's just like, okay, this kind of is that this is the space to be in the signal was beaming and I'm I'm in this space. But, um, for example, what happened again with this monastery example? I noticed once I got back, um, there was a gradual fading away.
[00:38:08] Something still remained, but it was a lot weaker than that initial point of. Because in that point of return, I was like, what is going on? This is like, I've never been in this kind of space before. And I just feel like every step I'm taking is just completely present and alive and full of life. And so I'm full of meaning as well.
[00:38:32] And, um, it felt, it felt like it felt like I was in harmony, I guess, harmonizing with everything. And then that gradually faded. And that's what I mean by, you know, the sense of, that's not that wasn't, that's not stable, that wasn't stable within me. And, um, that signal was kind of flicking it flickers and it's, it's not it doesn't, I guess there's an attachment involved with like, wanting to hold onto that space.
[00:39:04] Um, But yeah, it was just an observation, I guess.
[00:39:08] Guest: Yeah. I think it's, it's easy in our culture to blame ourselves for losing the signal. Um, and I think partly what I'm pointing to is both the, that it's not our fault. Although, you know, that's the one aspect of what can maintain the signal as our own diligence and efforts and discipline, but then also we just need to transform systems so that it's easier to be in that kind of harmonic relationship with the world.
[00:39:41] Um, that, that, that, it's not enough, even if you could. I think you can, I've seen it. I've I lived in Boulder, Colorado where this kind of thing, like it's possible to kind of create a little God realm on earth.
[00:39:54] Host: What did you see there?
[00:39:56] Guest: Oh, you know, um, how do I describe it? Kind of like. People with a lot of capital and social capital and financial capital who could, um, have access to wonderful spiritual teachers and retreats and the best food and the best, uh, kind of like tech techno boosts for physiology.
[00:40:19] And, um, they were just extremely happy and well calibrated in a lot of respects and vibrant. Um, but also there's a sense that it's just, isn't quite, I can't, I'm not sure I can put my finger on it. It's not quite, it's not in harmony with the whole, somehow
[00:40:46] Host: this something comes up for me when you're sharing this as a sense of there's this idea that I've had in the past as well.
[00:40:54] And it's this sense of art. Maybe you prosper in that, in that, in that way or with that trajectory. And then once your, once you've worked out things on a financial level or anything, or like, um, you know, once you've got the means to create that kind of a space, then you switch. But I think, I think the process of, of, of getting the mains or getting the finances to do that, I think in, in that process, something goes on as well.
[00:41:27] I'm not quite sure what it is, but there's a sense of, um, change within us in, by the behaviors that are connected to certain values. So it's like if the behaviors are in line and, and, and inline with certain values that are really like at the core of our being, there's a sense that, again, everything the rest takes care of itself, um, I dunno, this is what comes up for me.
[00:41:58] Cause I've had that idea in the past of like, oh, I'll make a bunch of money and then I'll just create a space and then everyone would just be, everything will be good. But I think in the process of what I've begun to realize is like, all right, well, if I'm focused on the money or that's going to breed something within me that maybe won't be the best for the space.
[00:42:19] And I don't know if I can really quantify it, but, or does that kind of
[00:42:25] Guest: it's it's it's related to it. It's not what I was pointing to in that, but it is. I think the case that we fool ourselves in thinking that we can participate in this system that is destroying life on earth in a way where it benefits us without kind of getting our soul dirty, like we can, and it's possible to do it in a way where it's, you don't completely succumb to lock, you know, you're kind of like.
[00:42:56] Using irony and somehow disconnected, but I think that it will inevitably desensitize you in various ways. Um,
[00:43:03] Host: because disconnectedness,
[00:43:06] Guest: yeah, yeah, yeah. You're going to have to ignore some aspect of your integrity, uh, is my sense would be my, it would be my take, uh, in order to do that, and that will then be reflected in the kind of harmony that you have on
[00:43:21] Host: the other side.
[00:43:21] I think I'm trying to say the same thing. I just don't have the words. Yeah. I feel like that's kind of the area that I was pointing to. Yeah. Yeah. I was just, yeah, I just felt that within me through the example of, of money or something. Um, but that makes total sense. Yeah. Yeah. Would you be able to share a little bit about Willow for us now?
[00:43:43] Because I know, um, it seems like you've been working on this for ages, like a long period of time and just being tracing things back and it I've noticed that. I dunno how long has, like, it seems possibly even years. Um, you know, why?
[00:44:01] Guest: Yeah, definitely. I mean, it, it, yeah. You know, I can certainly trace it back, um, through my, my whole life, in a sense, uh, more recently, you know, I came back to the monastic academy in 2017 or 18, uh, in part to develop the curriculum there and, um, through a lot of twists and turns the Willow program that I'm now in the last two weeks of leading, um, was born.
[00:44:35] Uh, and so it wasn't originally why I came back, but it was made clear that we had to do. The best thing to do would be to create a kind of ulterior space where we can prototype and experiment with some shifts in the system design that I felt, and that we felt were like, um, important to experience. I think
[00:44:59] Host: this is so exciting.
[00:45:00] I think like, what you're doing is like, it's like, it's so it's so exciting. This is like, yeah. And it sounds like a lot of fun as well, like, oh yeah. It's like to just like, let's just like try a bunch of stuff out and like, you know, see what fits where, and let's have fun with this and explore, and it's all for such a beautiful kind of, there's such a beautiful, um, you know, HeartSpace behind it, that it just feels like it feels so nice.
[00:45:31] If something really nice and fun and exciting about it, that's what's coming up.
[00:45:35] Guest: Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, there's a lot of different. Uh, pieces for me, like it's the first time I've, I've been a teacher really fully in this way, like where I'm the teacher in this, in this space. Uh, and there's all kinds of like personal challenges related to that.
[00:45:56] And so like, there's like the personal aspect for me. And then there's the more, just sort of like creative, uh, that, uh, that this exists now at all.
[00:46:08] Host: And then, yeah, I, it must taste place. Like there's an acceleration of learning through the teaching process. Totally.
[00:46:14] Guest: Oh yeah. Well, it's really good. It was really, it's been a lot of fun and I feel super grateful that, um, you know, maple trusted me enough to let me do this, that Willow trusted me.
[00:46:28] You know, station is my collaborator. She's the founder of Willow who trusts me enough to let us run this experiment here, that these like people came. Who in many cases I'd never met, who would just like entrusted their lives to this experiment for three months is wild. Yeah. That, that, that the conditions came together for this.
[00:46:49] This is amazing.
[00:46:51] Host: Tell us about it to me. What's going on over there?
[00:46:55] Guest: Well, so I'm out of frame. It it's a three month kind of Neo monastic experiments, three month residential training about an hour and a half east of Toronto. And there's eight people living together, training together full time with a modified monastic schedule.
[00:47:17] So we took the kind of schedule that we use in Vermont at the monastic academy there. And, and, and the schedule in a monastery is, as you know, from your time there was kind of like the spine of the monastery
[00:47:30] Host: before we continue. Could you maybe get into a bit more detail on the schedule because I'm curious.
[00:47:36] Um, there's a real curiosity about, um, this idea of making your home a monastery for me and this idea of like bringing that back. So just a glimpse into that might be great. Yeah,
[00:47:46] Guest: yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, we we've, we've shifted around a bit over the last three months. Um, but right now, uh, we pushed back the start time, actually just a couple of weeks ago.
[00:47:59] Cause it was getting, it was staying dark later. So we wanted to have the exercise period be during the daytime. So, um, we start in the morning at 5:30 AM with about a half hour of chanting. And so we have some chance that we do that kind of like present some of the ethical commitments and uh, intentions for how we use this time of training.
[00:48:25] And then we move it into an hour of seated, silent meditation. Then we do an hour, um, exercise. Every day, which is really a different people do different things. So, you know, I had my own kind of physical practice, but, uh, uh, and we help people. If you, if they come into the training, they don't have any kind of physical practice.
[00:48:47] We'll like teach them based on what they're interested in, um, different things to do, but it's, it's critical actually. Like we will sacrifice meditation before we sacrifice exercise in the schedule. Um, it's really fundamental.
[00:49:03] Host: Is it like, do you go for runs or do you buy a bit of yoga?
[00:49:07] Guest: I do a bunch of different stuff.
[00:49:08] I do yoga. I have a band-aid weightlifting. Um, Thing that I do, uh, sometimes I'll do sprints. Uh, I told this my body. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and, and, you know, um, it, it, it's very helpful because in doing this kind of training, you can often run into patterns of energy that are really, really challenging and will kind of get you into rumination cycles where like the energy is stuck and you can just create a lot of problems for yourself.
[00:49:38] And so, you know, exercise is good for lots of reasons, but one reasons it's good is that if you are, if you're exercising hard enough, you ha you cannot sustain that. And you just have to let go of some, whatever way of being you were coming into the period of exercise with. And so if you, if you, if you manage to make it through the meditation period, while still having a coherent sense of self.
[00:50:03] Then the exercise period is another opportunity to just blast through that and find freedom on the other side. So we do exercise for an hour and that's critical. And then we have, um, at Willow, this is, you know, it's a little different than it. Maple. We have a breakfast which is breakfast with journaling for about 50 minutes.
[00:50:23] Host:
[00:50:24] Guest: We have a silent, silent breakfast, and people are encouraged to journal and kind of reflect on their process. We give people different, um, methods of journaling. Um, and then, uh, we have a morning meeting where we do a kind of check in, uh, announcements, talk about the Workday. And then, um, we go into about for.
[00:50:51] Uh, five hours of work, five hours of like, um, you know, building this nonprofit basically. And so it's a bit different than most monasteries in that. Mostly we're doing kind of like knowledge work. So like, uh, fundraising or program design or, um, you know, uh, whatever else needs to be done, networking. Um, yeah.
[00:51:12] Uh, and then we have a silent lunch, uh, for 40 minutes or so some chores. Then we have three hours of self-practice time where people can kind of do whatever. Um, they feel as important laundry, continue to meditate, whatever is most needful. And then we have the evening program at five 30, which, um, has been a lot of different things over the last three months.
[00:51:40] Now we're at the point in the program where it's kind of this harmonization circle with. I could describe it more detailed, but it's a collective practice, um, for about two hours, two and a half hours, depending on how it's going. And then we end the evening with another silent sitting period and a 15 minute chant of compassion.
[00:52:02] So the evening ends around, um, 9:00 PM.
[00:52:09] Host: Yeah. And then back to Bandon and up at five 30 again. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So I'm just cognizant of time and I want to go a little bit deeper into Willow. I just wanted to know how much time we have and what we have like yeah. If we need to end it at half past or,
[00:52:27] Guest: oh, um, I think I haven't, I can go and tell least eight.
[00:52:31] Right. That's what I think what we scheduled. Um, but I could go a little bit past that if. Yeah.
[00:52:37] Host: Yeah. Okay, cool. Awesome. So I'm just thinking, um, yeah. So thank you for sharing that. I was just thinking now, like, it'd be, I'm just trying to feel into where the experimental, I mean, the whole thing is an experiment, but where the experimental components and the different types of practices come in, I know they're kind of seems like they're, they're kind of peppered throughout the day, but there may be a space of that five 30 area where you shift different things in and out.
[00:53:06] Is that right?
[00:53:08] Guest: Yeah. So there's, there's a couple pieces there. I mean, so yeah, in the five 30 period, that's definitely where a lot of what's most significantly different versus, um, what you would see in Vermont or other monasteries, traditional monasteries. And we also do do, um, regular retreats of like three days to five days.
[00:53:30] Um, uh, but it's really, yeah. That evening period. What are the practices that we're doing and also to a certain degree, how the container is held. So in Vermont and in almost all traditional monasteries that I'm aware of, it's pretty, uh, hierarchical and kind of like, I use this, I actually have a lot of fondness for this term, but authoritarian, right?
[00:53:59] Like they don't care what you feel. They don't care what you think should be happening right now. You're you're doing it. Um, we have, and I have used a lot of like, we call it non-coercive group dynamics and organizational design in terms of how the container is held. Things that I learned from like Holacracy and occupy wall street.
[00:54:20] Um, these are topics that I've explored in my podcast, but basically like how do we, um, kind of support wholehearted participation? Through mutual understanding and the presencing and surfacing of tensions of various kinds. So that there's like a really strong sense of coherence, harmony, uh, and buy in from the whole group, which, um, itself has a whole process.
[00:54:49] And it's kind of underlies this sort of, uh, philosophy and framework of this experiment, um, because the superordinate goal is, is sort of to, to produce harmony in the individuals, the system, the relationships, uh, all the systems that we can interact with.
[00:55:09] Host: Yeah. And is just with the different elements that come into, uh, This.
[00:55:17] So you mentioned, um, in a previous chat with John this idea of the body and making sure that that's kind of at a, at a nice base and then the psyche, and you mentioned the, um, the family systems, um, relationships, um, and then the ethics piece, and then, um, the perception. So these seem to be, um, like underlying kind of areas that are dived more deeply into three different practices.
[00:55:49] Um, would you be able to go into some of those practices with me and maybe share about how you're open to open that up for the group and maybe even a little bit about what you've learned through that process of teaching and holding those spaces?
[00:56:03] Guest: Sure. Um, I, it w where, is there any place in particular you like maybe to start, I guess?
[00:56:09] Host: Yeah. I mean, I recently, um, had a chat with guys saying stock around cycling. Yeah. And the whole idea is, and I've, I've run a couple of circling sessions since, and that's been, that's been fun. That's been interesting. Um, and it seems like that might even feed back into what you're talking about, this, um, non-hierarchical structure, you know, that's promoting and building that in as a sense of community and trust and, um, intimacy there.
[00:56:39] That's strengthening the group. And I guess what comes up now is this idea of like, yeah. People coming into that space, but I was just wondering, um, yeah, with that practice and also. Is there any other practices that you, that you bring into the space or experiment with, or is it just kind of these set ones that you've decided upon trying for a little while?
[00:57:03] Guest: Um, yeah, so we definitely, we have experimented with other practices. Like, um, somebody here is, uh, quite practiced in something called collective presencing, which, uh, they, I don't know if you're familiar with this, but it's a, it's a form of sort of like, um, collective intelligence practice, which I hadn't done before, but it is very lovely.
[00:57:26] Uh, and then we've also, um, created some exercises based on our. Experiments in the group, like we just created new practices together, um, and, and sort of experimented with that. But, but mostly we are sticking to the ecology of practices that, um, you know, I, I taught that are associated with those five aspects of harmonization.
[00:57:55] Um, and the circling in particular is fascinating. I think, because from my perspective, it is a kind of like foundation on top of which to build other, um, collective practices on top of. And so, uh, when I mentioned the five 30 to, uh, you know, the thing we do at the evening, the evening part of the program, what that looks like now, And this was always the goal in the program design.
[00:58:36] And I didn't know what this would look like in fact, or if we would get, there is something like a harmonization circle where we stick together in circle, the eight of us, and we're trained in all of these practices, all of these moves. Um, and we, based on what's present and what's emerging in that field, we, uh, deploy different moves in order to bring whatever systems into harmony.
[00:59:05] And so sometimes we'll do psychological healing. Sometimes we'll meditate. Sometimes we'll work on the level of perception and emptiness. Sometimes we'll circle a relational tension. Sometimes we will do ethical reflection and sort of sense into values or tensions in that space. And we'll kind of weave back and forth between them in order to create a super abundance of harmony across all systems.
[00:59:27] But that's interesting, but that depends on there being a kind of like. Legibility and, um, sensitivity to harmony and disharmony within those different aspects within each participant. So took a lot of training to get to that point. Or we just got there a little while.
[00:59:50] Host: Yeah. Yeah. I, I mean, it's a, I think it's a continuous sounds like continuous thing, you know, and it's like, what's coming up in that moment and what's being called for, and it's almost like all these different practices and all these different areas of experimentation and play have built in, uh, different energetic systems within you that you, that you can call forth when they're needed in that moment.
[01:00:14] If you're sensitive, if you're sensitive enough to. Um, request, it reminds me in a strange way of, have you heard of like, um, the Amazonian diameters where so, um, you know, shamans in the Amazon or, you know, different people go through the process of dieting, um, different plants and for example, um, the rows.
[01:00:40] So you could, you know, um, drink row you fast. You don't drink anything else for, you know, weeks or months or sometimes years. Um, and you, oh, you drink or you eat sort of enough food to sustain your body, but really bland foods every couple of days. And you connect with the spirit of this plant and then, um, It at the right moment in a, in a, in a kind of a ceremonial space when someone's requiring healing, um, these, these energetic pathways from the plant come up and they come out in songs.
[01:01:15] So that, that song is sung, um, at a certain kind of vibration and that, and that that's, you know, the perfect thing for that moment in the perfect time. So it sounds like a similar kind of a thing, but without any of the plants and any of the sharmans, but in a
[01:01:32] Guest: different way. Totally, totally. Well, I think, I think, and this is partly like, you know, the, the, the reason that I designed this, the way I did is because I saw in Vermont that people were coming with lots of different kinds of suffering and into a certain degree, they expected meditation to be a cure all for all of those types of suffering.
[01:01:53] And they're not like wrong. There's a certain way in which that's true, like meditation. Over a long enough time horizon practice with sufficient skill is a kind of cure-all magically because clinging ends up being that which supports all other kinds of suffering sort of, but like the devil is in the details.
[01:02:11] Our lives are made up of particulars and a lot of people, you know, uh, th th th the suffering of meaninglessness is different for the most part than the suffering that meditation deals with the suffering of pathological neuroticism and shame is different than what meditation is at least designed to deal with.
[01:02:37] It's true that you can kind of make meditation support those things, and it, and it's certainly helpful, no matter what I think in most cases, but it's a lot, there's better technologies and tools if that's like the kind of suffering that's present. And so, yeah, there's a very much a sense that there.
[01:02:55] Particular kinds of dissonances or disharmonies or tensions or sufferings and particular kinds of tools of harmonization that when leveraged just can unfold it much more quickly, much more
[01:03:08] Host: quickly, I guess. That's yeah, that just brings up point on the ecology of practices and why there, there are multiple practices that flow in and out and come, come forth at the right time where you can call upon them.
[01:03:21] Yeah,
[01:03:21] Guest: yeah. Yeah. And that's uh, and so John for Vicki and, um, and, uh, Jordan Hall had this conversation where they came up with this idea of a Metta psycho technology, uh, which is concentrated. It is, but it is, you know, they came up with words and staffing. Uh, it just means like, how do you decide which psycho technology to deploy?
[01:03:45] And it ends up that this is really the $10,000 question, and this is really the. Thing that underlies education to a certain degree. When do you offer the right sort of stimulus or tool or, um, you know, move to a mind in order to afford the kind of transformation that you're endeavoring to, um, to open up to and, and, you know, in a certain respect, a monastery is a meta psycho technology.
[01:04:16] The idea is that you enter into this culture and the culture through the teacher, as well as the other people you're living with, sort of can help you find your way to the right move, the right psycho technology, the right technique, uh, that is needed most needed for you at this time. Um, but, and, and so the idea in part with Willow is could it be the case that a group, a collective intelligence.
[01:04:46] Could be the Metta psycho technology that we can have enough exposure to different practices and ways of relating to our suffering that we could, um, participate with each other, such that the right move could be made, right. That I could, I might be able to see the key to unlock your suffering just as you can see the key to mind.
[01:05:12] And it seems like that has proven to be, I mean, there's a lot of refinements do believe me. This is like, I've got a laundry list of ways that I've made mistakes with this experiment. I hope I get another chance to, to, to try it, but, but it seems like there's something really there that, um, you know, it's, it's great.
[01:05:32] If you can find an enlightened teacher, I'm so glad that I have been able to study with soar you, but there's not enough of them to go around. We need other kinds of, uh, Systems and spaces that can easily afford transport. Yeah.
[01:05:51] Host: It's just coming back to this idea of it's. Yeah. It seems like, again, these kind of beacons and this kind of signals that are going to sit, getting sent out and I'm just picturing saw you as, and, and, and that being rooted in, again, these, um, ethics, you know, and, and the, and the, the way in which just breaking it down to the behaviors come through and how aligned that is, and then how strong that emanation is.
[01:06:19] And then having groups seems to be like a. Like, this is something I've been thinking about a lot is this idea of, um, the amplification in groups. So having, um, you know, a stronger signal by forming a group or by getting together with other people that, um, are aligned in, in certain ways. So it's the sense of like, um, but it seems like what you're yeah, what you're doing is someone that's like, I'm just picturing like a group of like magicians or wizards or something and you walk in and they just, they can just sense by it, uh, uh, uh, being this what is needed and just provide that spell.
[01:07:02] And, um, not that everything's instantly fixed, but it, it, it might Enlive and, you know, a seed within you to. Allow you to come into deeper resonance with that harmony and contribute to the, again, contribute to that, you know, become a wizard yourself based on just what's going on.
[01:07:21] Guest: It is exactly you're getting it.
[01:07:23] Exactly. I mean, that's the, the, the, my dream is, you know, or it, I want to live in a world where it's as common to go do training like this, as it is to go to the military, at least that common. And, um, these kinds of spaces like we've had now a few guests come and, and, um, only recently be opened up to guests because we're kind of cohering as a group and it's amazing.
[01:07:50] They step into it and it's, you know, it's just a different way of being, and three months is not enough. Like this is, it really is kind of like a lifestyle.
[01:07:59] Host: What do you mean three months is not enough enough for what.
[01:08:08] Guest: Hmm. I mean, there's lots of ways I go with that, but, but if the group is becoming individuated, it's finding its uniqueness just as each individual in it is individuating and finding their power, their sovereignty. And like, as that happens more and more of the group field becomes more potentiated, more coherent, more intelligent, more able to deploy the right spell and that, that refinement is ongoing.
[01:08:40] Um, and it just takes, it takes time. It takes time, it takes practice, it takes experimentation. Um, and I can, but I can see, like, I could imagine a community like this after like five years and just like the potency with which it would receive individuals and their unique suffering and its capacity to kind of transmute it into harmony.
[01:09:02] It's beautiful to me like that possible.
[01:09:06] Host: Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's just making my heart smile. Just the idea of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. I don't, yeah, this is just like, yeah. Being such a special sharing, I think. Yeah. Just, I'm just picturing, like you being in that group space and focusing on this and working through all these struggles and maybe being so deep in it that there's a lot, you maybe can't see that's happening through the motion of this.
[01:09:38] Um, but I can definitely feel it. So I just wanted to share that with you and I'm sure a lot of other people can, and I'm sure it's kind of, yeah, it's, it's a beautiful, there's a beautiful thing building here. And um, yeah, like I mentioned earlier, it's very exciting and I know amongst all the excitement and everything, there must be a lot of, um, again, heaviness and difficulty and, um, you know, You know, like you said, a few stumbles along the way and things like that.
[01:10:05] Um, but I think just the general trajectory of what you're doing and the value behind that, um, is almost feels like there would be such an engine, you know, such a kind of something that's that helps you move through those spaces. Um, and, and absorb the teachings from them.
[01:10:28] Guest: Yeah.
[01:10:33] Broke up a little bit. I think I heard what you said though. It's
[01:10:36] Host: okay. Yeah. I was talking to someone recently and that would kind of saying that, um, it was, uh, it was a great conversation. They were, they were saying like, sometimes the words that almost don't even matter, you know, it's just like,
[01:10:54] Guest: Well, I do want to say, I mean, I heard it, I heard a lot of what you said, and I appreciate the reflection a lot, and it's very valuable to me to talk to somebody who gets it, who's outside the container. Uh, um, uh, it's, it's,
[01:11:17] there's a part of me that can see the beauty of what is happening here. And it's just like very alive with it, especially in talking with you and seeing it reflected by you. Um, and then there's another part that should just like, this is fucking hard. Like I've worked so hard on this and the gap between my vision and my dreams and the actuality of it is vast and the necessity for there to be many, many more spaces.
[01:11:49] Like this in the world, in my estimation and the skill and, and like bundle of skills necessary to host a space like this. Like it's taken me five years more than that, the decade of training. And I still feel like I'm not really up to it. So I bought the one hand. I'm like, yeah, this is great. And then I'm like, holy shit, this is hard.
[01:12:16] And I feel just humbled by this experience and challenged in ways that has been the most. It's been one of the most challenge. It's been the most challenging. No, it's been in the top top five, most challenging things of my life. Yeah, I, yeah. Yeah. There's this
[01:12:35] Host: idea of what you, what you mentioned in that last podcast, when you're closing things off about, um, like almost.
[01:12:43] Being proud of the way that we can understand and think about things, but without the behaviors matching that pride, um, and it just being this kind of, you know, yeah. Just like it's, there's like a, it's hard to even put words around it, but there's a sense. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and a sense of like, not like this so much to do, um, and being, and, and almost like I get this all the time, this feeling of like, and again, kindness to the self and gentleness comes in, but then there's a balance because if you go too much in that area, there's less work that gets done.
[01:13:27] So there's a sense of like, Yeah, like we're getting called to step up right now. And it's like, what, what do we need to do that? And there's a question there, I guess, um, that is where the bike it's, it's worth being asked, um, for, for ourselves. And it's different for everyone. It looks different. Um, but
[01:13:50] Guest: that's, that's, that's, that's like.
[01:13:53] I had this conversation with Zach Stein when I restarted my podcast. And Zach sine is like one of my favorite people in the world. He's an author who wrote this book education at a time between world, between worlds and in a lot of ways, reading that book is what made me realize I needed to go back to the monastic academy because he, he, he presents the planetary crisis as fundamentally an educational crisis.
[01:14:18] And that's exactly what you say. It's like there, the out, what we need is spaces where you can go where, or where humans can go, where it feels. Right. Right. It feels like it's an integrity of feels like it's in trust. Like it's trustworthy, it's harmonious. And in that space. And I think only in such spaces, can you actually discover what is your soul.
[01:14:49] What is it that you are meant to serve the world? Like, what is that way? What does that mean?
[01:14:56] Host: I'm getting, I'm getting a glitch here. And this is between what we were talking about earlier with like being where you're at with the responsibilities and obligations of where you're at, and then being in these spaces where it feels right.
[01:15:12] And it feels like the difficulty level and the alert and all that stuff is in balance or at least fluctuating in that space. So it's like, there's a glitch there between the two, because it's like, how do you do both at once? You know?
[01:15:26] Guest: Well, usually people don't in this current world find themselves in such spaces until they've been in the attraction of the suffering of this system, because it w what, what if I'm, if I'm understanding what you're pointing to correctly, that is, is that to, to, to do that kind of work.
[01:15:44] Re revelation in terms of your soul duty, uh, it requires turning towards the suffering that our system generally is conspiring to keep you from looking at. And so, uh, that's, that's the, the necessity of that is that, or the beauty of that is that it might open you up to the willingness to turn towards your suffering in a space like this, where it can be through.
[01:16:11] Host: I think I was just confused between physical spaces and maybe internal spaces. Oh, I see. I see. Yeah. That makes more sense. Yeah. So I feel like I just posted you abruptly then. I'm sorry for that. Oh,
[01:16:25] Guest: it's okay. I it's just, it's just, um, yeah, I I'm passionate about the possibility of there being more spaces like this.
[01:16:34] I don't exactly know where I was going beyond that.
[01:16:37] Host: Um, Yeah, I guess what you were saying about the group, this is what's coming up for me, his idea of a single, and then, you know, like you said earlier, they can't be all the songs for use everywhere. So there's a sense of like, all right, the groups are forming and there's a sense of that that's going on.
[01:16:55] But then if you look at kind of the macro and the micro, um, there's a sense of that could be a possibility that spreads in different spaces. And, um, yeah, so there's a sense of like, you know, possibly hubs all over the world and like a sense of the connection between all that and that again, amplifying the whole thing just as the group.
[01:17:20] Guest: Yeah. You're helping me like, remember all the work we're doing. yeah. So that's the, I'm not a very good, uh, Not very good at talking about the work I'm doing. I appreciate you. Um, okay. Um, well, so exactly right. So, um, the idea hopefully is that if we get good at this, we can go to different locations in the world and, um, invite a team who basically want to, uh, launch a wisdom institution in a different city, in a different geographic region.
[01:17:57] Um, we do a three-month intensive to harmonize the collective intelligence and then support them ongoingly. We're actually building a whole digital backend to help automate the running of these kinds of environments. You know, things like admissions and marketing and food procurement, so on and so forth.
[01:18:20] And then, you know, ongoing support in various ways from the central hub and Vermont. Um, uh, as we call it, we call it the monastery in a box, which is modeled after different franchise systems. Basically make it easy to boot this up, um, without being too centralized, allowing for kind of individual idiosyncrasy and experimentation.
[01:18:45] Yeah. That's, that's one of our hopes is in terms of how we could create a kind of flourishing of wisdom institutions. Yeah.
[01:18:52] Host: It seems like there's like this idea of these centralizations through me at the moment. And the connection to that space is interesting in this kind of a context as well, like piggybacking on all these successful, um, forms of organization with, from all the franchises.
[01:19:09] This is, this is cool. Yeah. It sounds like there's, um, a lot of brilliant minds working together to make. With this possible and it all, honestly it feels me, um, it's, it, it tends to kind of not take away from the heaviness, but increase the lightness of the spirit at the same time. So there's something really nice about just finding out about all of this and yeah, I'm just, I'm just really happy about it.
[01:19:36] Um, so yeah, that's beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing and yeah, I feel like you, you were very, you're very skillful in the way that you share. So, um, yeah, I don't agree with what you said earlier. Um, but yeah, there's just been so much here and even just the process of preparing to chat with you and wanting to, you know, go gave me an opportunity to go back over a lot of the conversations I've heard, you know, and I think the second or third listening really, it's almost like reading a book and another couple of times it's new things come up and hits me at a different stage.
[01:20:14] Cause we're always. Flux of change. Um, so just wanted to share my appreciation for yeah. This moment. And, and thank you for yeah. For doing, doing this chat with me having this shared space with me. Yeah.
[01:20:30] Guest: Thanks for inviting me. My it's been lovely to have this conversation and to, um, yeah. I feel you to be a very like generous host, like, um, both in terms of the, uh, questions that you ask, but also in your willingness to share your own perspective, it's been just a real joy and an easeful conversation for me.
[01:21:01] And, um, yeah, really just happy, happy to be here with you and happy to have had this conference.
[01:21:09] Host: Yeah, it feels really good. Yeah. Um, thank you for saying that. Um, so do you want to maybe share some more information about maple is the traditional way to close it a podcast? Yeah,
[01:21:23] Guest: yeah. Yeah. What what to share?
[01:21:26] Um, w uh, well, well, so you can, you can, uh, go to monastic academy.org and find out more about maple. We're also running. I, it looks like we'll be running another three month intensive in San Francisco next year. Um, probably towards the end of the year. And I would just say, like, we're also now in communication with people all over the world, actually, who are interested in starting up new branches in their region.
[01:21:58] Uh, we're just beginning to build the infrastructure, like I said, to allow that to really happen. And so if you are. Uh, if you want to be a part of this in whatever way, we're really, really looking, especially for people who suspect that this might be their vocation like that they might want to give some significant portion of their life to developing, um, a flourishing network of wisdom institutions right now who like see that as like a calling.
[01:22:27] Um, I, you know, there's not much money in it, but there's a lot of meaning and beauty. Um, and so if that's you please reach out to the monastic academy, you can reach out to me. Um, personally, I'm on Twitter at D Thorsen. Um, or you can just email me. I think my email is like on the internet. Um, but I will be, I'm actually going into a solitary retreat in about a month for about 80 days.
[01:22:48] So maybe don't actually email me unless you're listening to this very soon, but I'll uh, yeah, yeah. Just please reach out
[01:22:57] Host: like, um, this will probably be out around that time. You pop out. Oh really?
[01:23:01] Guest: Oh, great. Okay. Then email me, who knows where I'll be. Um, we also do offer online courses too. Um, we have a couple online courses too, that you can take to learn about our ecology of practices.
[01:23:14] Host: Cool. All right. Should we, um, put a full stop on the recording? Thank you so much.
[01:23:26] Thank you so much for sharing your presence with me and for coming on this journey. If you're interested in working one-on-one with me, head over to today to rima.com to see what I may have on offer. And if you're interested at all in checking out some of the other videos, head over to youtube.com forward slash today, dreamer, or there'll be more content around cultivating the practice of presence in order to more fully contribute or participate in the blossoming of the emergent world stories.
[01:23:59] Catch you in the next episode and be well.