Taking a closer look at meditation with Matt Young
Taking a closer look at meditation deepens our understanding of its whole essence. There has been a lot of stereotypical connotations surrounding meditation. In this new podcast episode, we explore different states of meditation and meditative spaces. Matt Young shares with us tips for meditation and how beginners can start their journey of meditation. We also look at how meditation influences life and we talk about different insights regarding meditation. Watch the whole podcast episode and experience Matt Young's guided meditation!
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Taking a closer look at meditation with Matt Young
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Matt Young
[00:00:00] Hey, welcome to this episode of the today. Dream a podcast where we cultivate the practice of presence so that we may fully participate in the blossoming of the emergent world story together. Today's guest is Matt young, the director of the Melbourne meditation center, based in Victoria Australia. I'll tell you a little bit more about Matt real quick.
[00:00:23] He believes that insight and calm can be developed by welcoming thoughts and emotions, rather than by striving to make our minds empty. He's guided meditations, introduce unique strategies and insights and encourage listeners to adopt a playful exploratory attitude towards meditation. He runs wonderful regular workshops and courses and retreats in and around Melbourne and also offers online training.
[00:00:52] So, um, if you stay to the end of the podcast, there'll be a very special guided meditation. It was kind enough to guide us through. So be sure to kind of listen all the way through, cause it is a quite, uh, I used quite a beautiful and rich episode in and of itself and that little trade on the end just makes it even more special.
[00:01:16] So I'll quickly, quickly let you know that I'm also offering a one-on-one reflective sessions. Why my website today, dreamer.com. So if you're interested in, you know, someone to hold your hand through the process that you're currently going through, or a sounding board or someone to reflect, I've put together a structured sequence of practices and explorations that I'm looking forward to moving through with a small hand, a small hand-picked group of listeners.
[00:01:49] Sorry, if that feels right to you, feel free to get in touch. And if you haven't already, please take a moment to leave a review or a. Or send me an email to let me know what you think of the show. I'd love to hear from you. So before we get into things, um, actually let's just get into things. I think we have our breath together with Matt on this one, but yeah, I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did.
[00:02:16] And again, thank you for your presence.
[00:02:21] All right. So everyone listening, there's an invitation to gently close your eyes and coming to a slow and deep breaths together before we commence on this little podcast journey of ours. So if it feels right, feel free to close your eyes and see if we can inhale as gently and as naturally as you can.
[00:03:04] Whenever it might be that you reach a peak of the breath as an open invitation to just feeling to what that space is like.
[00:03:22] Gradually exhaling just this gracefully on the way out.
[00:03:30] Maybe it will repeat the process one more time.
[00:04:05] And then the next exhale feel free to generally open your eyes and
[00:04:15] let's get into things.
[00:04:22] So I was thinking the four parts I mentioned earlier around how we might be able to break things up and open to suggestions here to see kind of how you feel and think about this. But. What, what I, I tend to get a vibe from you, Matt of let's make meditation accessible to as many people as possible.
[00:04:44] That's kind of, um, a clear sense. I get from our interactions in the past and everything I've kind of come across of yours with previous chats and things like that. So an idea of how we might be able to do that through this channel I had was maybe I could just throw some, some common kind of, um, issues that I've experienced myself and that I've experienced people around me have had with meditation.
[00:05:15] Let's just see what you would have to say about that. I thought that might be one way, and then we could maybe even explore the idea of accessibility a little bit, if you are open to it. And then I was thinking it might be cool to find out a little bit more about. Um, and your own kind of experience through teaching meditation and meditating for a couple of decades now, and then possibly we could free flow for a little bit and then maybe end with a little meditation if you're open to possibly guiding one for us.
[00:05:50] Um, how does that sit with you and how does that feel? That sounds like a good place. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. I kind of intentionally set up the space like this today and I don't usually feel it from this angle because there's this sense of like, I've got like all this stuff going on behind me and there's a sense of you don't really need all the stuff to meditate.
[00:06:15] You know, you can, wherever you are in your life and wherever you are, you know, in the world, um, it seems like meditation. It's there for anyone. It doesn't matter. There's no discrimination. There's no separation. Um, yeah. Is there, is it before we begin, is there anything around this idea of accessibility? Um, is there anything that really drives you in that direction?
[00:06:46] Is there a reason for that or like yeah. What, what has kind of lit that fire within you is where my curiosity is city. You see there, there are a whole lot of little points that have kind of got my mind sparking from what you've just said. Um, the first thing that came up was the, I want to make meditation accessible, um, but not necessarily to everyone.
[00:07:13] Um, that can sound a bit weird, but what I mean by that, I see my role as a facilitating role. Like I'm not trying to convert everyone to meditation. Um, I'm interested in making meditation accessible to those who are interested in it. Um, if people aren't interested in it or, um, have all the means of kind of finding calm or balance or whatever it is, they're seeking that good for it.
[00:07:43] And then I think my brother, for example, he goes fishing. Um, he loves fishing and, uh, I think Betsy's meditation. Um, that's how I, I'm not going to try. And you know, every time I see him, but that's how
[00:08:03] he does his fishing. I do my meditation. That's good. So just to clarify, when I say making it accessible, it's just the occasion. Cause that's not a very nice feeling if you, you know, being on the other end of something like that. Yeah, no, not at all. Yeah. Um, and then I actually tweeted today. I remember what I tweeted.
[00:08:30] It was something to the effect that now the other thing about accessibility, sometimes you get people saying anybody can meditate. Um, I think there's some truth to that. But maybe there's a bit of that same kind of facilitation in saying that it's like, it's almost like you shouldn't meditate. Anybody can, I don't know.
[00:08:59] You don't understand how that saying. Everybody can meditate kind of can, can convey a sense that everybody should meditate. And I think, um,
[00:09:12] what I intended in the tweet that I made this morning was that, um, meditation, I think I actually explicitly said that meditation doesn't have to be something mysterious, mystical, magical. Um, esoterica unusual when you kind of related to this, when you said, you know, you can do it without any, um, it's simply a way of focusing and since.
[00:09:43] Um, which I think is that everybody does all the time and meditation. We just do those things much more consciously and deliberately. So in other words, I would say that everybody does meditate and in a very meditation can be a very natural instinctive thing. It's just give an example. Like if whenever you've felt peaceful, You're probably using your attention in a measured way, or if you're lying in bed at night, Walmart at the covers, this need for rain adder on the roof, or if you've gone for a Bush walk and you've sat down by the Creek and you're just listening to the kind of trickling sounds of the water or the wind through the leaves or the, the sound of the waves on the other ship, then your attention is drawn into this kind of into the month into the sense into the sensory world.
[00:10:39] And you know, that's not, that's accessible. That's, that's nothing in a way it's nothing special, you know, cause it's so universal, uh, kind of, uh, experience, uh, but it is special in that we often remember those moments because there's a kind of richness and alive the student and we feel, um, At one, she use a real cliche, um, while on that basis at home, um, or just kind of chilled.
[00:11:15] Um, uh, so I'm not sure whether I answered your question then. That's kind of what I mean by accessible. Yeah. I like that clarity that you've, that you've kind of shined on that because yeah. Sometimes we can, in the way we express things, we couldn't maybe subtly be taken one, one way that maybe wasn't intended or, um, we can even, yeah, there could be this, this idea of, you know, people could feel a certain way by hearing, you know, everyone can meditate with sense of, or even like the sense of pushing us or everyone should meditate.
[00:11:51] But I think what you've addressed there seems to be like this idea of, you know, maybe, maybe people that feel like they can't meditate or they haven't got it within them. Um, Maybe they've meditated in the past before, and they haven't even realized it. And they've been, they didn't even realize that was meditation or, you know, this label of meditation hasn't been attached to that experience.
[00:12:14] So, um, that connection wasn't quite there. But I think what you're saying is it's kind of, this is what I'm hearing anyways. It's, it's, it's within all of us all, we've got access to it. If we want to go down that path or if we want to explore that area and we're probably doing it in ways we don't even realize.
[00:12:33] Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. What you alluded to there was someone might hear that statement, you know, anybody can make it. And then like, you know, a lot of resistance might come up because they might say, well, I can't, I've tried it in work. It was impossible. It's crap. But you know, there's the kind of stereotypic, stereotypical conception of meditation lacking the mind, sitting in the Lotus pose, chatting over whatever it might be.
[00:13:06] I can't do that. And that'd be right. Or, um, that'd be right to the degree that it might've been unsatisfactory or uncomfortable for them to, to meditate in that way. Um, but if they have a broader conception of meditation, then I might go, well, actually, yeah, you're right. I'm on that I can, um, made Italian in some way, if not in the excited, I've got a curiosity coming up, if you've ever experienced, I know that I've come across this a couple of times and I haven't really been sure what to make of it.
[00:13:43] This sense of, um, almost like, um, shrugging off forms of meditation. Like I don't, um, you know, I don't meditate in this way, but you know, I meditate in all these other ways. Um, I dunno, like I've heard people say things like that have just come across, like it's a shrugging off or like it's a kind of a, um, yeah, it's not for me kind of thing.
[00:14:21] And there's a sense of like, Different things are okay for different people and work for different people in their own way. So there's a sense of like, of course that's okay. But I also sometimes get a feeling of, um, almost like an, a resistance to experiment in some forms or, um, like, yeah. I don't know.
[00:14:44] Like I just, I'm just thinking, I'm trying to think of some concrete examples, but, um, like, yeah. I'm trying to think of where I'm going with this. There's this sense of like, okay. Um, There's there's this group of people, I guess. And I've definitely been in this group before, and that's kind of a sense of like, um, no, like I can't do this.
[00:15:11] This is too difficult. Um, there's also, I guess, like another, um, group, uh, way of thinking, that's kind of like resistant to experiment. Um, how would you approach that when it comes to people wanting to meditate, but maybe I'm being a little bit resistant to try things out, or, um, maybe feeling like when they've tried things in the past, they might've gotten a hint of things being uncomfortable.
[00:15:37] So they've decided to kind of block that off in terms of exploration, which again seems totally fine, but it seems like, yeah, there might be some kind of, yeah. Do you get where I'm coming from? So it sounds like in a, let's say someone's had a previous experience, which was. On satisfactory or worse. Um, and so, you know, they trust that experience or that experience kind of calcifies or solidifies within it comes a kind of pretty from what leaf that's kind of resistant to change.
[00:16:17] It's hard to dislodge, uh, you know, the person themselves might find it difficult to dislodge, let alone, you know, someone else. Um, and so that kind of prefer, uh, creates some resistance, some barrier to, um, further exploration for experimentation. Um, and
[00:16:45] I think for that kind of in that kind of situation, Uh, a direct approach, the kind of advising or recommending something to that person. And then there's unlikely to be a drawer active. That would be that kind of Priscilla to come across in that kind of way. It's like, you're broken, you need to do this.
[00:17:11] That's how that could be heard if you're trying to. So I think that I would kind of lead those people to kind of, um, change their mind in their own time.
[00:17:30] So if we, if we're thinking about these ways that people can reach a meditative state outside of, um, you know, I guess a formal sitting practice of some sort like, like maybe within, um, sport or music come to mind, or a moment where you're staring at the moon or you're kind of immersed in the. Sounds of nature.
[00:17:53] Are there any ways that you've yourself looked at, um, accentuating those, those, those experiences or, um, maybe, maybe not formalizing them, but you know, ritualizing them or bringing them into some kind of a regular practice of some sort? Yeah. Uh, well, that's often a question, uh, us, uh, vegetation students, if someone's come with saving, rather than teaching them how to bid that, I'll ask them.
[00:18:25] Um, what, what does, or what do you find relaxing or do you find pleasant enjoyable? What, what brings us into balance? Um, I mean, uh, relaxation, calm to your life, where do you go for those things? Um, I think even just asking that question. Kind of a stock, you know, why, um, it kind of validates whatever it is they do is there's something kind of useful and warranting kind of time and attention.
[00:19:06] Um, I think this is just something to just come up real quick and sorry to interrupt you, but there's a link to what, where I was calling you earlier. It's just kind of makes sense now, what if you feel inside? And this is like, again, probably a judgment from my point of view, but what if you feel inside like that may be not the best thing, like, for example, um, for me to meditate, I need to relax to relax.
[00:19:32] I need to watch a lot of TV just as an example. Um, And it's hard to judge because, you know, you never know because other people's experiences are so much different to your own and who knows what they could be going through in any particular moment. And who knows how that maybe it does work for them, but there's a sense of some of these things I've heard in the past, haven't worked for me.
[00:19:54] And I think maybe that's where that initial inquiry came from.
[00:20:00] Yeah. I'm not quite sure what your question is there. So it's, it sounds like you're saying let's sum in a scenario where I say, what relaxes you and someone says, you know, watching binge watching Netflix or drinking two bottles of red wine, that's my way to meditate. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we, yeah, well, whilst.
[00:20:29] Uh, like to have a rule it's flexible definition of meditation. I think what you might be alluding to is, you know, where we're out of the boundaries away, do your line with something become meditation. Yeah.
[00:20:46] So yeah, it would be likely to require a little further, like, uh, that sounds like as an effective means of relaxation, but are there any, are there any drawbacks to that particular thing or do you think it might be, or would you be interested in exploring. Why is to relax, which work dependent on your Netflix subscription or your fit to Dan Murphy's or,
[00:21:23] um, and again, that's almost lucky. Exactly. And it's not, it's not offering advice, it's just kind of inquiring and maybe encouraging curiosity. Yeah, yeah. Seeing what the, what the person themselves thinks. Really. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, okay. So I'm just maybe just going to throw a few more kind of things that I've heard before.
[00:21:47] And one of them is I go to sleep when I try to meditate. So there's a sense of like, I can't meditate because I always go to sleep. And my, my ex partner used to save is quite often, she used to just, you know, Go to sleep or being, being paints. There's like two that are coming up for me at the moment. What would you say to someone that maybe felt like that?
[00:22:12] Um, it would be a similar approach. First, first I might ask, how do you know that you're a sled? Because I think that's often very frequent people assume that I've gone to sleep. Um, in other words, they are, I would say they might be mistaking asleep, like experience. It could be a heaviness of the body. Uh, uh, it could be addressing this.
[00:22:41] It could be just that their thoughts are appearing to them in a much more random fragmented. Y um, it thoughts rather than a kind of, uh, And he's kind of mattered to you, uh, maybe plating images or fleeting imagery, just random imagery popping into their mind. So this is a type of thinking that it's thinking that I normally only experience when they're asleep well, when they're dreaming.
[00:23:16] So it's this kind of a dream or a sleep light quality to their experience. Um, another way of putting it is, um, people often say sleep and wakefulness as binary. It's an on, off switch.
[00:23:39] Whereas I see it as a spectrum where you've got at the top end of the spectrum. Highly awarded awake alert, or even, you know, panicked, fearful. If you're panicking, you're very awake. And then there might be, um, stages where you're kind of ugly effervescent, um, and white fool, then a wife feeling tired. Um, and then you get drowsy.
[00:24:18] Um, so yeah, there's a whole sector and in meditation you're accessing the lower half lower reaches of that spectrum. Um, and non-meditators may not have consciously explore the nuances. So as soon as I kind of teach into that tier three, that people will want to sleep because that's what reminds me. And in fact, um, that actually, if they can say I was sweeping any pack, they were awake that are actually asleep.
[00:24:53] There's a sense of also labeling those, um, stages in the spectrum as good or bad, or maybe uncomfortable or unusual, um, whatever it could be. And. What's coming up for me. It's just this, this idea of actually I've heard, I think it was Shinzen young. I'm not sure if you've come across his work for, he's kind of mentioned that there's actually like a beauty in one of those kinds of spaces.
[00:25:16] That's actually like the aim is to be there or, or at least when you're there, you're hanging out there for a little while. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think it's interesting. Um, some people don't like to feel drowsy, um, for, for some reason. Um, but don't like the kind of sleepy feeling that they feel they want to be up stimulated.
[00:25:41] Maybe that associated with kind of, uh, sadness, depression, maybe they were depressed at some point or they're just being taught or somehow they're just, you know, they don't like the kind of low energy, sad melancholy, relaxed kind of spaces. Um, so that kind of resist relaxation itself. Um, I think, yeah, this it relaxation itself, which is in my mind, a very pleasant, you know, nice space, um, can, can be kind of uncomfortable or threatening for some people.
[00:26:22] Uh, it's almost like a loss of control. And I think can come into that. So like to, to let go of wakefulness is to let go of consciousness to let go in a way to kind of trust that things will be okay. But I just dropped my guard that people might feel safe enough to do that. Yeah. The idea of, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:26:49] There's plenty of there. And I think this keeps coming up every time I speak to Matt, actually this idea comes up and I think there's so many layers to it. It's the idea of. It's just the parallel between meditation and life. And I guess you can kind of draw a parallel between anything in life, but, um, for example, playing the keyboard like we discussed earlier, but with meditation in life, there seems to be these, these lessons that come up throughout life that, you know, directly relate to the meditative experience and the sense of, um, as a perfect example, this sense of letting go of control, um, can be quite beneficial, both in meditation and in life I've found and, and other other little, you know, beautiful just it's like everything.
[00:27:40] I'm not sure about everything, but it seems like almost every little point that you've, you've provided me in the past as sort of linked to life in a way. And I find that fascinating. So yeah, I say vetted, I think meditation should meet in microcosm. And I say that because often meditation is kind of compartmentalize.
[00:28:06] It's almost like it's a pop. Yeah. Separate from life. You know, even in, you know, sometimes the recommendation is then you find a special meditation time and place. That's like, here's your life is your meditation. Is meditation. Is this like greenhouse environment or glass house, which is completely separate.
[00:28:28] It allows you to escape or retreat from life. Um, I think that has its benefits. Um, and I'm not saying that's not useful or good in some ways, but like you say, if meditation is kind of incorporated integrated with life, um, then yeah, you can then influence life and vice versa practice can influence and influence.
[00:28:58] Correct. Rather than having them kind of discrete separate things. Yeah. Is it, this is actually a question I wrote down for you when I was thinking about our chat and it's this idea of, I've heard it come up in an number of different contexts, but it's the idea of like creating a bridge or, um, you know, beginning to build that bridge between your, I guess practice or whatever that may look like for yourself, um, and life.
[00:29:25] So is there anything you could share around that space of like, you know, maybe fusing the two, although it seems like there were already together in a lot of ways, like there's maybe not too much you need to do, but, um, I'm sure there are things that can help, um, you know, allow that to be. Um, more of an obvious thing or more of a useful thing in life, or maybe not useful as that maybe useful is not the right word, but yeah, they can be a, um, a marriage to take that could take place, I guess.
[00:30:00] Um, once that's a conscious, uh, when that, once that's kind of a conscious thing, when you are, when you're aware of, um, how connected your practices with life. Well, yeah, I think that's skills can be very context dependent. Um, let's go acquisitions. So maybe you could become an expert at finding calm whilst you're sitting on your part meditating.
[00:30:34] Um, but that does not necessarily transfer into. Your life of work real life in peak hour traffic or life in relationship, et cetera, et cetera, it can. And it does for some people, but, um, not necessarily. So I think you have to look closely to see whether it is the case for you. Um, and if not, then it's a very consciously apply the skills or attitudes or ways of relating to experience that you've developed in meditation and apply them, um, when it needed have, uh, at the key points or key moments in your life.
[00:31:26] That's why this. I think we often use the word meditation crap just by default. Um, without the what, why do we call it practice? Um, cause it's not the real thing it's practice for life.
[00:31:47] I was just, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It's kind of thinking like maybe life is just one being meditation and there's a sense of what you're saying about the spectrum of dream states. You know, maybe that's just another state of, in the spectrum when we're awakened, where in real life, I guess. And then when we're practicing, maybe that's just another space on the spectrum, you know?
[00:32:11] Um, do you know what I mean? Like I could be driving. I could be in a meditative state while driving. And that would look very different to what we were talking about earlier with this, you know, drinking red wine or I'm watching TV. So if it's all a sense of a state of being, um, yeah, it's a seems like that.
[00:32:41] I don't know. It's just like a different frame, I guess. Yeah. That reminds me maybe with show. No, not really. I haven't read the stuff that, um, people have kind of mentioned him quite often. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely a bit of a character. I'm remembering one of his books. He said, you know, the happy person doesn't need to meditate.
[00:33:07] Um, he cause the out it's a natural state of what I am meditating. Cause it's, it's just too well, the way they are that are infused in that way of paying attention, why have attending to the life as it unfolds? So in that way, yeah, that's, he's, he's saying exactly what you need, you know, life is meditation or life can be, um, I've got quite a few things coming up, but I kind of want to stay on track with the successability and maybe just throw a few more, um, little ideas out there for maybe people on the beginning of the journey.
[00:33:48] And then I think when we kind of shift into this next phase, we might be able to just had a thought, maybe we could, um, yeah, I don't, I don't even know how to explain this, but I was thinking maybe, um, the accessibility kind of things. It could probably. Hit anyone at any part of their journey, whether they've been meditating for three days or whether it be meditating for 10 years, like, um, the lessons seem to hit us at different points.
[00:34:16] So, yeah, I was just, yeah, I was just thinking maybe, um, we could do a couple more. Do you know, is there anything that comes up for you? When I say common, um, common reasons, people feel like they're incapable of meditating. What would be the most common reason you come across or you've come across before?
[00:34:39] I think the most common one is I can't meditate because I can't stop thinking. I can't clear my mind or some variation of that. That would probably be the biggest I was going to say I can't meditate because I don't have the time, but certainly initiative too, but that's that one's less common now.
[00:35:04] Because, you know, the recommendation always used to be that you need to find 20 minutes in your quiet place to set aside time to meditate. But that model is not really so prevalent anymore, which kind of proliferation of apps screen two minute meditations and five minute meditation. So people don't have that unrealistic expectation or that expectation that I have to sit a whole lot of time aside.
[00:35:29] They've recognized I can do it in short parts or integrated into my life. I think it's still, still kind of issue for some people, but yeah, the bigger one and the more, the more common one is, yeah, I can't meditate because I can't clear my mind. What do you do when you can't clear your mind or what do you do when you feel like, um, there's a lot going on during a meditation practice.
[00:35:59] No there isn't.
[00:36:03] I'm sorry, what do you mean by there? Isn't well, I don't care whether my mind is, uh, whether I'm thinking or not. Um, I can eat, I equally have a satisfactory, relaxing, pleasant, meditation experience with which I am totally satisfied. The, this seems what you're pointing to is the judgment of the experience or how we kind of relate to what we're going through.
[00:36:37] Yeah, actually I was thinking about this today. I was actually listening to a different podcast on the new therapy going to cope with that. It co-tenancy therapy. Um, and so. I would say I'm, I'm very aware of my thoughts. Um, so, and what that means is I have a choice about how I relate to them in a issue.
[00:37:10] If you have less developed awareness of thinking, then you could spend 20 minutes or an hour or half a day or a week ruminating on something that stresses you out, worries concerns, or you might just be incessantly planning, or you might be in, you know, very self critical and judgemental. You might be wondering, what are those, what does that person think of me?
[00:37:41] Or what did that mean? When I say is. At all kinds of unhelpful thinking could be going on inside your head. Um, but because you're not because that's kind of happening automatically, you're not sufficiently aware to notice it and decide is this where I want to direct my attention? Is this what I want to pay attention through?
[00:38:05] Um, so in contrast to that, I'm aware of my thoughts. Um, and to the degree that I, I rarely get caught up in them. Um, and because I rarely get caught up in them, they have much less energy, much less momentum. They, so they're not problematic or they're not, um, I'm not having a whole load of unhelpful, uh, because that.
[00:38:42] That means I have no resistance to my thinking in a field of Washington and know that my thinkings doesn't just sort of disturbance won't upset me. I'm going to, um, I can welcome. I'm going to have a very welcoming, even kind of loving attitude, probably more accepting how to choose two months old. So that's my kind of default attitude to my thoughts is like, they're a part of me and I'll treat them like another person.
[00:39:13] Um, has it always been that way? Was it like that in your very first meditation, for example? No, I did. I certainly wouldn't have explained my relationship to my thoughts in that way. I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have even considered the relationship much in my thoughts. Important. I would have been much more probably.
[00:39:42] Aware of the content of my thinking or concerned with the content, I would have thought as important what I'm thinking about, um, or whether I'm thinking or not. There's different emphasis now. It's what is the relationship with my thoughts? And do you feel like I, I kind of acknowledged that everyone has an individual experience, but do you feel like there's like the meditators pattern of some sort, or do you feel like there's a similarities between journeys that's quite universal when it comes to meditation?
[00:40:18] Can you clarify that question? Well, do you feel like this? Sometimes I get the sense and it's just like an intuitive thing. I guess it's just a feeling, so I'm not really sure what it means or where it stands, but it's this idea that like, um, You know, there seems to be similarities in peoples in the way that people come to that relationship with their thoughts, um, that people that meditate.
[00:40:47] So it seems like pretty much everyone that I know that meditates can, would probably say a similar thing to what you've just expressed and this sense of like the, the evolution of their relationship with their experience seems to be there in one way or another. Yes. Yeah. I don't think it's inevitable.
[00:41:14] Um, and I think the trajectory or the speed of progress is not necessarily when you're or the same for all. Yeah, definitely. Um, It's very typical for beginners to, or, or people who, uh, you know, kind of anxious or depressed or highly stressed to really struggle with their thinking in some way. Um, I wanted to stop basically.
[00:41:45] I want some rests on the spot from it, whereas more experienced meditators. Uh, they're not really concerned. I don't have those concerns. Um, is there anything that you might be able to say to someone, but I think maybe it might be a nice time to transition into another section, but, um, would there be anything kind of like a last thought or any little, um, maybe a gift you could give someone.
[00:42:10] That may be in that realm at the moment of feeling like, you know, uh, things are a little bit too much and they can't, they can't stop thinking and they, and they, um, they really struggle with meditation because it's quite uncomfortable and, and they, they want it to yeah. What they, what they were hoping for.
[00:42:29] Isn't really coming into being, and it's unsatisfying, it's usually an unsatisfactory experience. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, when it comes to thinking, I'd say, and this, this is can be super counterintuitive, but the single most useful, helpful thing to do is to, um, yeah, it can
[00:42:56] to try and develop a healthy harmonious relationship with the thoughts, let that be the goal. Um, so the goal is not to get rid of them or to make. All positive or slowly out or something. It's recognizing that thoughts themselves. Um, and neither good nor bad. Um, and it's, it's the relationship with them that creates the outcome.
[00:43:22] So if you want a peaceful mind, you have to create a good relationship with the thoughts, um, big kind to them. Um, treat them like then not a problem. The other way to look at it is if you're having a battle with your thoughts, if you're rejecting them, then they will feel rejected and they will feel like they have to fight back that they have to shout your attention.
[00:43:51] So if you try to shut them down and push them away or repress them, then invariably, they're going to get worse. So it's maybe even just suspend that behavior generally as an experiment. See what happens when I just say, okay, so today you think I'm just going to sit back and watch there's a lot more to unpack with that, but that's, that's the general.
[00:44:17] Yeah, I think that would be very helpful. And again, the parallel to life comes up like with emotions or with certain situations, you know, if you treat things that in, in that kind of a way, they're more likely, I feel, it seems like, um, to work out rather than be repressed and come back and come back, maybe heavier in some way.
[00:44:39] Yeah. That's why I say it's so useful to personify them. Imagine they were, you know, if another person's in your face and you just yell at them and hit them for me, um, Yeah, it sounds like that as a way of creating Ellison. Harmony. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Thank you for sharing all of that. And I hope that helps some, someone out there listening or you out there listening.
[00:45:08] Um, so I was wondering, would you be open to sharing a little bit more about your experience? Like you've just frozen? Well that's okay. You mean the sound or the video or both
[00:45:22] sound video? Both we back
[00:45:29] just frozen. Okay. Maybe that was a sign. Be careful where you're going with this. Um, yeah, I was just wondering if you you'd be open to sharing a little bit. I know people usually do start of episodes, but I'm really, really curious about a couple of things and one of them is, and this is just. I don't know how, like it's just something that's coming up.
[00:45:52] So I'm just going to throw it out there. It's this idea of just being curious about your own experience and, you know, there's this sense of,
[00:46:06] there's a sense of like, um, the possibility of chasing kindness kind of aesthetic experiences within, you know, the realm of motivations when it comes to meditation and, um, also shying away, like we just spoke about these more difficult, heavier, um, um, talkative, um, chatty experiences. So I was just wondering if, you know, you'd be open to sharing if you've actually like maybe some of your, some of your experiences that may be on the more intense side of the spectrum, whether it's static or.
[00:46:46] Really heavy. I don't know. It seems like a big thing to ask someone now that I'm saying it, but there is a curiosity there, so yeah. But I think certain things immediately pop to mind. Um, one is just how I was introduced to meditation. Um, was that was, I don't know whether intense is the word certainly surprising and compelling.
[00:47:14] So, um, I was in India how to pack packing. Um, and I should stress that. I, I hadn't gone to India to do the ashram thing or learn to meditate from the Indian masters, um, far from it. Um, I was actually, uh, living in the UK, um, at my time up, Tom was up there basically. Visa and run out. I, I wanted to stay, but, um, basically I got kicked out of the UK and you gotta go, you gotta go.
[00:47:50] Yeah, I didn't want to come on because I was loving it so much. So I thought, oh wait, can I go next? I thought, well, Asia is in between London and Brisbane, which is where I was from. Um, and so I flew from London to Calcutta, headed up into Nepal and then came back down into India and then in Varanasi or NRR and Aras and RS call it map, um, which is, uh, how to Northern India on the Ganges, where they had the burning gaps.
[00:48:33] Uh, it's a wild, wild place. And when that was there, someone said, um, we need India, you should study. And w who is this person? Sorry. I can't recall exactly. I think it might've been another backpacker. So whisper in the ear. Yeah, I got it. Why the hell would I want to do that? Yoga? Wasn't the kind of popular thing it is today on every block.
[00:49:04] Um, I kinda just thought it was training for confessionists and I had no intention of joining the circus. I thought, why the hell would I spend any time bothering with yogurt, but just this guy must've convinced me somehow. Cause I ended up doing five hours of yogurt day.
[00:49:29] How did you get from this is for contortionists to that amount. Um, does that quite a bit of yoga?
[00:49:40] Obviously it wasn't someone to do something that was, uh, this, this guy just recommended. I think he said go and see Roger. And this was Roger schedule. Is it like
[00:49:55] there's heaps of yoga schools for backpackers? Um, but yeah, this was just one little dude on his thing, but anyway, um, each afternoon we were instructed to meditate. Um, although instructed might be not quite the right word because essentially, uh, at some point in the afternoon ride, you would say. Stay. And then he would wander off.
[00:50:26] He'd leave us there half an hour. It just disappeared. I was, he went, um, and it was funny because we were the top floor of a three story building and the top floor didn't actually have walls. It kind of had half a wall. It was just open to the elements at a tin roof. Uh, and periodically monkeys would come pounding across the roof screeching clamoring, and all the kids would come home from school and they'd be yelling and flung their carts.
[00:50:52] And that'd be meal preparation and Smith, domestic disputes kind of going on downstairs. That was a racket. So you wouldn't say necessarily the most conducive, peaceful meditative space is thrown in the deep end by Roger.
[00:51:13] Um, and yet. Uh, I can't exactly remember what happened on the first day. Um, but on the second or the second day I started getting very hot. I'm like sweating. I'm like, yeah, I actually felt like I was gonna, I was worried that I was going to spontaneously combust those kind of weird. Um, and then on the third day, that intensified, even to the such a degree that I thought like hot racks was just going to come first in my years.
[00:51:51] So it's getting hot and I was shaking and sweating. Um, uh, what's going on here? This is weird. I'm just sitting. I'm not doing anything. It's not, it's a nice, cool breeze. It's not actually that hot, but I'm kind of, yeah. Really, really sweating. Um, and so that was, that was pretty true. Um, that didn't usually happen when I sat, not that I tried sitting still for half an hour, everyone go before, but yeah, that was unusual.
[00:52:21] So that, that really did my interest. So there's something to this. Um, and I'm pretty sure I asked about you what was going on? Well, what the hell is this normal or typical questions you might ask or you have an unusual experience like that? And I remember being totally unsatisfied with his answer. I think he might've said, oh, that's Kundalini or something or other, um, I can't even remember what he said, but I remember I was on satisfying.
[00:52:52] So that kind of set me on the path. I find out what is this what's going on? What is meditation all about? Um, so that was kind of a life-changing monitor do away. Um, like suddenly they went from knowing, just in yoga and meditation to, uh, Uh, compulsion almost the whole meditation in every shape way or form I could.
[00:53:19] Um, so that's, that's one, one experience, I think, a more useful experience to share, because this shows the kind of feeling potentially of your lack of meditation, or I was on a retreat and there periodically in whilst I was meditating, I would feel a bit nauseas and queasy. And it was when I felt these nausea, this queasiness I associated it with, or reminded me of a drought, a recurring dream that I had had since my teens, maybe even earlier.
[00:54:08] Um, in which I was chased by the Michelin man, whereas the Michelin man would just chase me. And of course, you know, in that kind of dream where you're being chased in, you're just running and running and running too scared behind will stop. Um, and so, yeah, I've been meditating periodically and this feeling would come up and it was kinda overwhelming, you know, just that Viet or terror of being chased by some one star.
[00:54:37] Um, but of course the, the guidance in meditation when it comes to any kind of discomfort, um, is often just sit with it, notice it, I attention eight curious. Um,
[00:54:55] and eventually I developed the capacity to actually there's one specific time. Um, this feeling came up, but it was, I was already pretty relaxed. I was in a pretty calm, peaceful place when this happened. So that gave me the capacity just to, for not to run. Um, you know, you might say not to run psychologically, not to, not to try and get out of this moment or out of this experience.
[00:55:24] So it just sat with it. I said, ah, what, what does this actually feel like? Um, and I noticed it kind of whole lot of sensations kind of within my body heat pressure, so on and so forth, uh, just watched and the sensations just changed. They just kept changing. You're kind of, it's like morphing shifting, moving, uh, and the pain and the fear, the difficulty kind of.
[00:55:58] I was just desolving was just evaporating from the experience to the point that it actually became really, really pleasant. Like I'm just sitting there kind of pausing glowing. Um, and at that very moment, the thought popped into my mind. I'm never going to have that dream again. I haven't. Um, and that was probably 10 years ago now.
[00:56:26] Um, so yeah, I still don't share that cause it's, it's a kind of interesting in many ways. And I think that, I mean, that's,
[00:56:41] it kind of shows the potential of meditation. It sounds quite liberating actually sounds. It sounds quite like you're afraid of something that you've been trapped in the cycle. And, and that cycle seems to be a running away of some sort, but it's what I'm hearing is there's like there was in that moment, a closure of some kind of a S of a circle and a completion of some kind of a journey, whatever that is some, you know, who knows some deeper unconscious thing.
[00:57:14] And it definitely sounds quite transformative and quite healing and liberating. It sounds like. Yeah. Like, wow. And what an impact that, that moment must have had on you. Like yeah. Especially if you've been having that dream or your life. Well, it's funny when he said what an impact that had on you. It's, it's funny in that.
[00:57:39] In some ways it hardly had any impact at all. And I need to explain it. It's like, it was just like, shut my shoulders. You do. So like, something that was massive is now. Yeah, exactly. It's kind of like, yeah, it's almost, it just, it just sounds like something was healed and there's like some change, but then there's like, almost like a, yeah, like a dropping of a weight of some sort.
[00:58:08] Um, but then it not being a big deal because it's just like, yeah, exactly. You're in a new moment and there's a new, you know, every, yeah. I think it's a constantly shift. That's so interesting. Yeah. And it, it doesn't sound like an everyday kind of experience. Really. Yeah. But I, I should stress that. That's not an isolated experience.
[00:58:35] That's a particularly memorable one, but there are many, many other instances that have similar, um, maybe less dramatic, but similar kind of, uh, experiences that had similar qualities. And I think that those experiences have developed my capacity to tolerate and develop your confidence in your capacity to tolerate me with, uh, experience life as it is.
[00:59:07] That's what I can fly. This is workable. I can deal with this wherever, whatever life throws at me, we can deal with this. I think that it's like you're soaking well. Meditation has the potential to evaluate you kind of marinate in that kind of, um, let me call a flexible company. Yeah, that's a great way of putting, putting it.
[00:59:34] Yeah. There's a sense of like, but also there's this thing, there's this idea of like, you weren't really trying to do that. You weren't really trying to close that loop and it wasn't like you were striving towards that. It just kind of was a little gift, I guess, that had a reason unexpectedly and you're like, okay, thank you.
[00:59:53] And let's, let's keep kind of being, you know, and yeah, I feel like peppered within our meditation journey or even alive. There's so many of those little gifts that tend to arise. Um, Yeah. And I think that's kind of another, maybe another little pattern that I've noticed within other people that have meditated, that there are those gifts, you know, they might have different shapes and forms, but it seems like they, you know, they, they, um, they're quite prevalent.
[01:00:24] Yeah. That's, that's interesting too, that it was definitely not something I was seeking. I wasn't meditating to read myself as initial and manage
[01:00:39] all the gifts or many of the gifts are completely. Yeah. Like, um, unexpected with grace. Seems to me the word that you for renews, you know, they just come up. But there was that even though there's not a striving for a particular outcome, or I'm not tied to that story, there still seems to be a fact that you sat down and you meditated.
[01:01:08] So there's almost like, um, there is some motion involved on your end. There is some, like, you are kind of inviting that in, or you're making that the potentially the potentiality kind of, um, you're, you're almost like inviting that in, in a way. Um, but not specifically and not, um, not kind of, what's the word you're not deciding between different things.
[01:01:33] You're quite open to whatever, whatever happens there. And I think. Being that kind of a flexible, like you mentioned earlier, current, what you, what the specific term was, um, yeah, by having that sense of flexible confidence, I think you're kind of opening up your potentiality in a lot of different, positive, only positive or negative, but a lot of different, beautiful directions.
[01:01:58] Um, yeah. Yeah. It's so nice. And there's something really nice about this idea of just doing it for its own sake. Like you're just, you're meditating, but you haven't got, you know, uh, you've spoken before about these, these ideas of, okay. Like I'm meditating to heal or meditating to grow on a, you know, personal development basis or are meditating for some kind of a spiritual connection or growth, and there's nothing wrong with any of those avenues, but there's also something nice about.
[01:02:31] Just meditating, like,
[01:02:36] yeah. Yeah. And then again, linking that to life as well. Like, like, okay, I'm just going to like live my life and let go of these kind of, um, you know, these pressures. This is, as you know, I'm not saying that like, it's an easy thing to do or anything like that. And that in itself could become a kind of a pressure, but there's a sense of like something nice about that.
[01:03:03] Yeah. It's interesting. Meditation does often come with, um, well, it's like, I need a reason to better attack, um, or we, but we did lots of things without having to have a reason. Then one day for a walk or you sit down for dinner, um, they need a reason to do those things.
[01:03:36] Yeah. Even like the reason you went to India sounds like it's a bit like that, even though you didn't want to go home, but there's a sense of travel that comes up for me. Like, um, I once heard this, someone speak about, um, reasons, like interesting ways to get to places. Like one of them was like, you just sift through a bunch of old postcards and you just choose one at random, or you receive, you just flip through something and you spontaneously going some kind of a direction, or you, you know, just this sense of, you know, you don't, it doesn't matter what the reason you got to a place is really, it's just the fact that you're you're there that in that moment and that's all that really matters.
[01:04:15] Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Okay. So what do we say now? I'm not being so mindful. We said, we'll explore the idea of accessible. And then maybe move into some stories and I, I do appreciate you sharing those maps cause, um, yeah, it's nice when, when, when there's, when there's openness and, um, uh, stories like stories like that and really I think special.
[01:04:36] So I do appreciate that. Um, and then what do we say we're going to do after that? You recall what I mentioned? Yeah. Free flow. I guess we've been kind of doing that the whole time and I'm looking at my notes here and kind of seeing what questions, so that's not really free flow, so I won't do that. Um, yeah, I just, I would like to know, and maybe this is a nice little seed, but is there, you know, How do you see meditation in the world today?
[01:05:05] What do you see as, um, like what's your perspective on meditation in this day and age, maybe where you are even, you know, in a Western society like Australia, and I don't know, like, I know this is kind of maybe asking you to put some limitations on it, but I don't mean the question like that. I just want to know your perspective on meditation and, and where w how you see things.
[01:05:30] That's what I'd like. I'd like to sit and see things from your perspective. Uh, it's definitely a much more popular and, uh, more accepted that it was when I started out. Um, well, uh, I'm still continually amazed how. How many people have very dated, stereotypical views of meditation. That kind of, yeah, I was going to say from the sixties, but maybe actually not just from the sixties, but maybe from 2000 years ago.
[01:06:23] Um, also very when asked it, you have meditation, I guess, um, even with people who are introduced and the meditation through apps, I still have, I've got to see it. I don't know. Even like it, someone will go in to a kindergarten until the five-year-olds we're going to meditate. And someone there, some of those five year olds will immediately, um, Put their hands in the difficult cross-legged close their eyes.
[01:07:01] Oh, how does what I think, why does that stereotype, how's it getting to me a little bit, I think there's little heads, which you think would be for you all as things. Um, so yeah, I'm amazed at how prevalent that is. And I'm amazed at how, uh, there is a general distrust of the mind. Um, like the mind is dangerous.
[01:07:42] Well, mind and thoughts and emotions. I'm saying. Some of the common metaphors, right. Monkey, mind, or meditation, which obviously retain the, my, or attain the emotions. Uh, like, yeah, like there a while my lack of something. And I guess maybe they feel like that to some people. Um, but you know, we look at that just popped into my head, my animal training, um, uh, modern, like it used to be you, you broke in a horse, but I listened to that terminology.
[01:08:33] You, you broke, you break it, you break the rules. Uh, that's not a particularly, it doesn't seem like a particularly nice or kind of, um, kind of way to treat another creature. Um, But then you also hear the whole whisperer and you think of, think of someone think of a horse. Whisperer is a whole different attitude approach.
[01:09:05] I think we're still breaking in our minds and the meditation rather than whispering to them. Um, that's yeah. That's I don't know if that's actually the case everywhere, but that's kind of what I kind of see. Um, I think we can do some more mind whiskers. Yeah, that sounds beautiful. So we've got, um, what was that flexible one that you used earlier?
[01:09:41] Flexible confidence. And I've got to write these down. This is good. And are there any areas where your curiosity is, is kind of, um, alive these days in terms of the meditative experience? Are there any, any areas after doing it for so long now and, and being in this space? Um, so it sounds like India was quite a, quite a time ago in a different, in different moment in, in, in, in the way of things, but is there any way that sparking your interest now that's actually got still exciting for you and still worth kind of, um, exploring, um, this moment?
[01:10:20] Yeah, I think I've mentioned emotions
[01:10:27] and I think emotions. Do, um, often play a surprisingly small role in meditation or in the meditation instruction. And not in my experience, the emotions aren't kind of considered an integral part of meditation are integral concern of the practice. You know, it's, it, it's kind of described as mind training, attention management.
[01:11:00] Um, you don't often hear the emotion is described in the definition that's I, of meditation. Um, and usually when there are instructions it's around, how do we work with emotions? Um, how do we, how do we find that less troublesome than this Balsam? Um, Whereas I see, and this is certainly a different story.
[01:11:32] Like again, uh, I think emotions are kind of, uh, one of the essential aspects of life is to be human is to be emotional in a way that let's say, if you're a robot, I've got a mind, you've got an intellectual. You maybe not a mind, but you've got this logical apparatus and your lack of emotion. Um, so yeah, humans, humans are emotional beings.
[01:12:01] Um, and if we're working, let's see there's a lot of, lot of love, potential, um, it for meditation to really help us to, uh, better understand and appreciate our emotional lives. I think meditation is a great place for, um, yeah. The study, the appreciation of emotions and their value. So that's, that's what that's kind of, that's the intersection kind of finding out how can we, how can I contribute to the development of that area?
[01:12:54] And have you come up with any ideas? Uh, well, just mentioning it is a start, um, normalizing it. Um, yeah, there's like increasingly stumbled across interesting researchers and authors on this topic who taught me about emotions in very new and different ways to. Um, what we have traditionally, um, any you could throw out there, so I could kind of just add them on for people to look into.
[01:13:33] Yeah. So, um, Carla McLaren. Yup. Um, then the Lisa Feldman Barrett who wrote her book was how much is the mind? Oh, it's got several different books, the language of emotions. Um, I recently came across a YouTube channel therapy in a nutshell. Um, my Emma, Emma McAdam, and she has a 13 part series called how to process your emotions.
[01:14:14] I haven't made my way all the way through that, but that looks like a really good resource. I also read a book. Uh, toddler scapes, um, uh, why good feeling, why bad feelings are good? What good feelings are. Good. Something along. Yeah. Good reasons for bad feelings, ink. That's a nice title. Yeah. Um, and that was from a, um, there's a psychiatrist kind of neuroscience or evolutionary psychology, I think was part of that, but it had some really fascinating stories too, um, about repressed emotions and how they manifested in weird physical ways.
[01:15:09] Good, good reasons for that dealing. Yeah. Okay. That's interesting topic. How, how, um, repressed emotions have come back and, um, A and you in the ass a little bit, um, in physical ways. Yeah. Well, I'll tell you one, this is the most for those really great stories. And I like these kinds of stories from that book.
[01:15:34] So this psychiatrist was actually referred a patient because the patient had a right arm was paralyzed. So she'd been to all the doctors, um, for physical Jacobs and they said, there's nothing wrong with your arm. So she eventually got shunted to the side because seemingly there was nothing physically wrong or neurologically wrong.
[01:16:01] Um, and so this guy is having a consultation with this lady with a paralyzed arm and. Um, he said he, she wasn't very, she couldn't really get much out of her on what was going on in her life. She's kind of, um, she was just concerned with a paralyzed arm so I could fix it. Um, but that kind of obviously asked about her relationship and so on.
[01:16:33] And then finally at the very end of the session, um, just as she was about to leave, but she'd got up and she was kind of walking out of the room. Uh, he said, uh, so what would you really like to do to your husband? And she lifted up her paralyzed arm to stab him in that and said, Ooh, did you just see what you did?
[01:17:02] You just lifted your paralyzed. Cause she, she actually made the motion to stabbing her husband in the pack. Um, and he pointed out your arm and she denied it. She's not, that's interesting. So you had this thought that she wanted to stab her husband in the back was so inappropriate in her own mind. So horrifying that she paralyzed her whole mom, um, has a response or, or that was probably, the husband is probably a good thing for the husband.
[01:17:42] The arm was parallel
[01:17:48] and there's of this amazing number of extraordinary cases like that. Um, which obviously extreme, but, um, they kind of, I mean, it just points to have fascinating. We are the, the amazing kind of solutions. Mentally and emotionally, yeah. What comes up for me is the idea of mystery. Like there's so much mystery in life that we just there's so much we don't know.
[01:18:21] And it's like, yeah, there's something to kind of the standing all about that. Yeah. As you can remain completely unconscious at the motivations and the kind of mechanism at work, how much kind of a yeah. Ignorantly, I feel like we're all a bit like that in our own ways. Yeah. It's quite amazing. And that's why I think it's so nice to do things like this and have conversations and connect with other people's perspectives and yeah.
[01:18:55] Just kind of interact with other people. And I think there's almost like a, like, we were able to color in a little bit more of the picture when we do that.
[01:19:08] Yeah. And yeah, it sounds like, wow, just picture, I'm just kind of imagining being in someone like by, in her position with that specific scenario though. Um, yeah, but I do feel like we're all a bit like that. Um, yeah. And I think meditation helps with that as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it might seem like we just went on a strange tangent, um, vaping out that story, but you know, that's, you're asking me kind of what excites me.
[01:19:36] No, no, no, that is fascinating. That's that's um, yeah, it's an interesting space to explore and I'll definitely be checking out that, that series as well. It sounds like, um, yeah, like from what you've uncovered so far, it sounds like you feel like it's a, it's an interesting direction to head in. And, um, that definitely freaks my ears up.
[01:19:55] Yeah. There's lots of potential. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like in a sense, like, yeah, this has been around for a long time and we're talking quite a long time and it's gone through various transitions and, you know, evolved in different ways. And there still seems to be so much space for exploration and creativity and, um, you know, um, remixing, like what's got me excited recently is this idea of like remixing elements of different styles of meditation and bringing that together in an, in some kind of a, a different way that maybe fits people and, you know, makes it more accessible to people that, you know, um, might want to try things a little bit differently, you know, or might want to experiment with a whole bunch of different things and see what fits.
[01:20:41] Um, so yeah, so yeah. Thank you for sharing that as well. So would you be down to. Um, yeah, I'm just kind of cognizant of time. I don't want to run this too long and take up too much more of your time, Matt, but I was wondering if you might be still open to, you know, doing a short meditation with us and guiding, guiding us all through a, a bit of a journey.
[01:21:05] I don't know
[01:21:09] a sense of how long or what kind of well, oh, well, we could go in emotion since we're already on that topic. And, um, yeah, I think you've done this once before he was like throw out a bunch of things and let's see how this goes. Um, uh, so I guess emotion might be one of them. Um, we could leave improvisation, spontaneity, and, um, yeah.
[01:21:35] Uh, the word openness comes to mind some reason. Um, yeah, just leave it at that, I guess. I'll see what I can come up with.
[01:21:57] One of my rules of thumbs in life is to do the opposite. Um, sometimes that's a bit of a rebellious kind of strange quality that sometimes doing the opposite can be really educational. What do you mean by doing the opposite? Tell me just before we begin, we can start by sitting out uncomfortably.
[01:22:25] Okay. Let's get back into this uncomfortable position I was in before.
[01:22:33] Um, we'll just start by sitting uncomfortably and making no effort to relax.
[01:22:44] Uh, that Spain or extending a little curiosity to the quality of that experience.
[01:22:56] So it's kind of an encouragement not to rush into a kind of meditative posture or a meditative attitude
[01:23:10] or habitual legislative posture or attitude. Let me say, just to check in with this moment,
[01:23:27] let me just to
[01:23:32] decide how to proceed a little more intuitive instead of relying on what you've heard or you've been told or.
[01:23:46] Well, I just decide his. So once they're appropriate in this market, what adjustments would I like to make?
[01:24:05] You might even say
[01:24:11] hi there, Alex, what would you like?
[01:24:22] And then if they answer, in some ways you might rearrange the lower half of the body.
[01:24:41] Just your question. Let's just according to your own preferences,
[01:25:09] you might also say hi there, Brian, what's up.
[01:25:23] Just notice how the brain response.
[01:25:42] Does your brain seem interested in
[01:26:10] perhaps more importantly, notice how you're responding to this moment.
[01:26:23] You're responding to your experience. Whatever's going on. And already, already your mind and the environment around.
[01:26:50] Could you say that you are totally, totally at ease with what's happening?
[01:27:03] Were there aspects of experience that you resist?
[01:27:29] You might take a moment to pick out, but one thing, this conference you the most,
[01:27:47] that's going to be an irritating, slightly irritating sound that you can hear.
[01:27:57] It could be some discomfort in the body.
[01:28:05] It could be a mind. That's a little easier than you'd prefer.
[01:28:19] You might just say it to yourself.
[01:28:24] We can deal with this
[01:28:31] maybe seems not quite so bad as I'm making a,
[01:28:50] what would it be like to let this moment be okay? Just as it is.
[01:29:46] Just briefly noticing the expression on your.
[01:30:07] And explore what it might be like to make that expression seem a little softer, a little more neutral
[01:30:25] with the expression. Be like, if you were either sound asleep,
[01:30:34] we're quite content.
[01:31:03] And then we'll just take a little brief discussion into the world of emotion.
[01:31:15] Can you start just by asking, is there anything I'm pleased with? Happy about glad to have experience in the last day of working.
[01:31:51] Just notice how that contemplation kind of resonates in the body.
[01:32:17] Similarly, ask whether there's anything that's a little disappointing.
[01:32:39] Let's see if you get a welcome, any sensations, any impressions that arise in the same way that your welcome is associated with pleasure or happiness.
[01:32:56] I think those feelings kind of drift through the body, through the nervous system on hindered,
[01:33:14] knowing that emotions cannot hurt you. Literally, they're not dangerous.
[01:33:25] Just need some ideation, just sensation one quality or.
[01:33:42] And then you might ask,
[01:33:46] is there any lingering kind of irritation, annoyance
[01:33:59] floating around inside
[01:34:05] mama to acknowledge that, to identify, just see it or its absence.
[01:34:43] Remembering that these are just passing moments, passing experiences
[01:34:54] probably handled similar, more likely you've handled much worse in the past
[01:35:17] and whatever you feeling good, bad or indifferent.
[01:35:24] Just remind yourself that these are legitimate feelings,
[01:35:32] not a sign of weakness or failure,
[01:35:38] just natural human responses to life. As it unfolds,
[01:35:57] then finally give me permission to rest
[01:36:10] that the limbs and the muscles go loose.
[01:36:29] But the brain kind of slip into neutral.
[01:36:39] So it had nothing to process.
[01:36:58] Let's see if he can bring sense of acceptance to this.
[01:37:15] We might simply say to yourself,
[01:37:20] it's okay to think, whatever. I think
[01:37:27] it's okay to feel whatever I see.
[01:37:35] It's okay. I'm okay.
[01:38:00] I have the capacity to make this.
[01:38:20] You might see if you can just let the breath fall from the body
[01:38:30] without it
[01:38:47] in your own time. Well, yeah, I just want.
[01:39:12] Thank you for that map. Do you have a one last question? Do you ever feel like, you know, when you get to a beautiful space in, in, uh, in the meditation and then as, just as you arrive, it comes to an end?
[01:39:34] Yeah. Um, actually that's one reason I sometimes say, and as we, George we're close or for the final few minutes or moments, um, I mean, Without realizing it. I try to meditate working at it, like putting effort into effort, into relaxing, try harder to relax. You can do better than that. Or you can feel better than this.
[01:40:13] So you can find that quiet space in your mind or something. I said, this is continual kind of almost vigilance. How am I, am I really version of a sudden version? Am I doing this right? Have I got there yet? Or could be a million things? And so I just say, oh, the meditation is open now or about to Wayne.
[01:40:39] Like he can, he can surrender. You can give up, you can do a media job of the last couple of minutes. Cause it's on, it's all my stuff. It doesn't really matter. And that's when people actually finally do relax. Let go of that. Striving. Um, so this is slightly different to what you have mentioned here.
[01:41:00] Well, yeah, you just, you might arrive at a nice place and unfortunately the, the guidance on the apple in the room, and this is why, I guess it's nice to not rely upon guides since outlines, just go through your own organic process and you just, when you're done cooked. Yeah. There's something nice about it as well, though, about life just being there and not trying to hold on to it as well.
[01:41:36] And like the coincidental nature of that moment, you know, seems like it's happened to me quite often, recently where I just arrived somewhere where I feel like I've finally arrived or it's just. Just like a moment of deep peace and then a couple of moments later, or two or three seconds later, it's like, yeah.
[01:42:00] It's like, okay. Um, yeah. Thank you so much for saying yes to come on and, you know, with all the rescheduling and everything and, and sharing space and your stories and your openness has really been very insightful and I'm sure anyone listening will be able to, you know, find something of use out of this chat.
[01:42:22] Um, there's been so much has been shared that I think could probably hit people at different stages within their own meditative journeys. I just wanted to share. Yeah. And behalf of all of us. Thank you. Yeah. And thanks for inviting me, Michael, and, um, yeah, appreciate it. The time together. I appreciated your thoughtful questions and it just, the whole very casual, whiter flying.
[01:42:49] Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I'll put some links to the ones that you've mentioned. Is there anything you want to maybe say to people that want to find more about your work or how they might be able to, um, learn more about your style of meditation or more about you? Um, yeah, if you link to the website, but that's sufficient.
[01:43:10] Yeah. Cool. Easy. That's the most casual kind of, um, yeah. Sharing of one's own link that I've ever come across and I kind of liked that. Yeah. Yeah. That's really nice. Yeah. Thank you so much, Matt.
[01:43:31] Thank you so much for sharing your presence with me and for coming on this journey. If you're interested in working one-on-one with me, head over to today to rima.com to see what I may have on offer. And if you're interested at all in checking out some of the other videos, head over to youtube.com forward slash today, dreamer, or there'll be more content, uh, around cultivating the practice of presence in order to more fully contribute or participate in the blossoming of the emergent world story together, catch you in the next episode and be well.