Mindful approach to psychedelic use
Practicing a mindful approach to psychedelic use is an important first step to take. In this episode, Blake Rupert, a practicing Buddhist, shares with us his experiences related to the use of psychedelics and his practice of mindfulness. Blake has a practical protocol he uses to become more mindful in his use of psychedelics. This episode includes important considerations for psychedelic first-timers so you can have a safe and considerate experience. Learn more as Blake shares with us deeper wisdom and what to know before taking psychedelics.
Show Notes Links:
Learn more at:
www.blakerupert.com
https://podcasts.apple.com/ee/podcast/rupert-radio/id1542731830
Full Podcast Transcription:
Deeper exploration of psychedelics and what to know before taking it
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Blake Rupert
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[00:00:00] Host: Welcome to the tonight dreamer podcast. I really appreciate your presence in this moment of being with all of us here together, it feels really nice and you're very welcoming. This space today. Dreamer is a podcast or space that's being created for you to explore what the cultivation of presence looks like within your own life and what it feels like to contribute that presence towards the blossoming of the emergent world story.
[00:00:32] How can we more deeply participate in that blossoming? How can we more fully collaborate and contribute towards it is a question that we continually explore through conversational space on the show. Today's episode is on psychedelics and Buddhism. When we explore the intersection between the two. Very prominent topics that come up regularly on the show.
[00:00:59] If you're someone that's never had a psychedelic experience before, and you're feeling a little bit curious around the idea, then this is the perfect episode for you. If your interested in Buddhism and in psychedelics, this is also a good one for you. So I'll give you a little bit of an intro and then we'll move into the show.
[00:01:22] So for millennia, psychedelics have been used by indigenous and other cultures for spiritual and healing purposes. They were studied by researchers within psychiatry from the late 19th century until the mid 20th century, when psychedelics became highly regulated, stigmatized and became for the most part illegal to use or study in any context today, after over two decades of clinical research and advocacy for drug policy reform, including.
[00:01:54] For legal permission to study psychedelics the marketing psychedelic drugs is predicted to be more than double from the $3 billion industry. It is today to a $7 billion industry by 2027. I growing body of evidence from clinical research trials is showing that evidence-based psychedelic assisted therapies have the potential to improve the lives of millions of people who live with the impacts of complex trauma and other clinical conditions, including depression, post-traumatic stress disorder, anxiety, and substance use disorders.
[00:02:33] So today's guest is Blake Rupert, and. Blake. And I had a great chat around the intersection of psychedelics and Buddhism among other things. Um, but Blake's just an amazing human who I'm going to tell you a little bit about now, before we go a little bit deeper together. So Blake is a Buddhist therapist and advocate for psychedelic medicine and he is also a mentor and author.
[00:03:00] He's a book nerd and an avid outdoorsman. He grew up in north Vancouver with mountains and a great rain forest, right in his backyard. He loves Hocking and ultra light backpacking. And with 26 years of active exploration, he's been led into a Korea as a nature based outdoor educator. And, um, he has bachelor's in psychology and philosophy from Del housey and, um, yeah, he ended up studying.
[00:03:33] Can computational science, specifically the intersection of consciousness with AI and the impending rise of thinking machines. So he's also a beautiful person being human, and you'll get the sense of this just by, you know, the instant. He begins to kind of share his vibe with you. With us. He takes amazing photographs and creates these beautiful art pieces, which we also explore.
[00:04:05] And he's also worked for maps Canada as well, which is where I kind of got that little spiel on psychedelic medicine from, he has a podcast called Rupert radio, which should definitely check out after this one. And the show explores technologies and teachings to develop our awareness and increase our degrees of freedom.
[00:04:27] So I think it's quite clear why. for a chat. And I think this is going to be a very special one. So without further ado, here's the conversation with Blake. If you do get something out of it, I do, uh, humbly request that you pass it onto someone else that might also, um, gain some benefit from being a part of these communal conversation.
[00:04:52] Um, but yeah, he's a chat with bike. I hope you enjoy. And yeah, thanks again for being here with us. Sorry, where do we begin? It's something I've been wondering about in preparation for our chat like this, there's so many kind of interesting facets
[00:05:13] Guest: to
[00:05:15] Host: the surface of, of, of who you are and what you do. And this is only from a distance that I've noticed or these kind of little interesting sparkling gems that I'm curious and.
[00:05:30] And buy a field near with wonder and excitement. So I guess the first thing that comes to my mind and my heart would be kind of stumbling across your Instagram and these photos, which, which are really beautiful, but they also the captions for the photos and the kind of marriage of those two elements really brought about a sense of meaning and made me really curious.
[00:05:58] Um, especially because recently I've been kind of exploring the idea of what, what nakedness or nudity or being totally free of
[00:06:14] Guest: yeah.
[00:06:17] Host: Or looking at, I guess, clothing as
[00:06:20] Guest: an analogy,
[00:06:25] Host: what does it mean to be naked? I've had a recent experience where. Uh, standing in a river and I felt almost ashamed or nervous taking my clothes off and was worried about what may happen if someone came around the corner or, you know, how I might be seen. And, um, yeah, I, there's something about your photography style and the meaning kind of behind your words and that kind of experience that I've been thinking about and exploring that kind of felt like maybe a nice place to begin, even though it may not have anything to do with what I thought chat would be about.
[00:07:06] Yeah. How does that sit with you and this? Yeah. Is there anything that you'd like to share about, um, that journey and, um, that space
[00:07:18] Guest: for sure. Well, first off, thanks for hosting this conversation and inviting me to speak and thank you so much for your kind words and your, um, Heartfelt sincerity and acknowledging the art that I try and make and the messages I try to convey.
[00:07:34] I really appreciate it. Um, yeah, all that you've said. Um, I can say for the nude photography that man it's so many things are bound up in this process of not only creating the art of nakedness, but also being a nudist I, something I identify as in the sense that I really have tried to push myself to those uncomfortable places and to develop a practice where I can show up simply as I am in my skin without, um, layers of resistance, layers of.
[00:08:20] Tension or feeling like, oh, this is inappropriate or I don't belong here or people are judging me. And that's been a journey that I've been on for, uh, at least the past 10 years. I'm reminded of a conversation I had with one of my good friends where we had both been, I think, new to us at that point for multiple years.
[00:08:42] And it was the spring and we went to go skinny dipping and we went to dive into a river. And just before we took off our boxers fully getting naked, we both had this moment of like, this is, this is so wrong. This is so inappropriate. And I had this sort of meta awareness for a second to be like, wow, I've been doing this for six years.
[00:09:06] Spending time bathing. Or running on a beach or whatever it is, these simple, really wholesome and natural things. And here I am in this moment with no one around except for one of my best friends. And I feel this resistance, I feel this fear. Wow, isn't that interesting? And so I tried to employ, and I think he did at the same time, this sort of mindfulness of, ah, this edge that I thought I had conquered is reappearing.
[00:09:40] Wow. I thought I was past it, but wow. I'm now have the opportunity to learn this lesson again, or engage with this, um, this question of whether or not it's okay to be myself as I am authentically and without, um, need of any mask or filter between us. And I think that question is something that. I had mentors and friends and role models.
[00:10:11] When I was in my late teens, really subway, they pose those questions to me. And I saw a richness there that I chose to lean into and to explore. And for yeah, many years it's been a fertile place to, um, poke around and root through and see what I come up with. It's interesting
[00:10:34] Host: how we can, you know, we have this, this thought that, you know, we've gotten past something or that we've, you know, learn to lesson in a certain way, and then it may not reoccur.
[00:10:46] And then the surprise feeling of it happening again. That's exactly what happened to me and my kind of shared experience as well. I was kind of like, oh, well, I thought I had moved past this idea of worrying about what other people think. And then I'd realize that there's probably many layers to that exploration and.
[00:11:09] I'm probably unaware of most of them. And it was just, yeah, it was a bit of a shocking moment of revelation that, you know, um, there is there, there might not ever be some kind of an end point to a lot of the lessons that we go through and that's okay. And relearning them the next time around with the previous experience of the first, it seems like a, like a familiar friend rather than as much of a yeah.
[00:11:36] Um, there wasn't as much tension, I guess, the second time around. Well, you know, I'm saying second, but who knows how many cycles it's been? Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. So, um, with the, so you've been doing this for a while and what does it, what does it mean to be a nudist? I, I'm kind of like, I've never really, I don't think I've ever met a nudist before, and I've never really thought about this idea of.
[00:12:03] Being naked. And I mean, there was a point in, in this experience, cause I was away for a few days with a group of friends where we all just ended up taking our clothes off and getting in the water and it just felt, really felt quite liberating. And it felt like, yeah, it was, it was, um, it's a showed a lot.
[00:12:24] It showed me quite a bit and it allowed me to think about things from a different perspective and just the idea of clothing itself, uh, as it's felt, clothing felt strange for the first time. And that was an interesting, um, thought and feeling I guess, and it felt nice to feel wild, you know? Yeah. Like I felt even more connected with, uh, the natural world and the sounds and the textures and.
[00:12:51] Everything from like the glimmering of the sunshine through the river to the way you exploring past and, and the breeze and my skin, everything just felt more alive and more wild. So, yeah, I guess my question is, yeah, like what does it mean to be nudist, uh, to you or to be naked to you? And, and have you had similar thoughts or have you had different ones that you might be open to sharing?
[00:13:18] Guest: I think maybe a good way of leading into this is through a story and it's of a, um, I think I was 19 at the time and I had gone to my first music festival, uh, Sasquatch, um, in Washington in the U S and there I had on one of these wonderful adventurous nights, met this girl who. Completely enamored me just, she was mysterious and she was playful and she was funny and she was beautiful and super intelligent.
[00:13:55] And through some twist of fate, we stayed in touch. And after the festival, the first time we talked, she asked me if I wanted to go to this place called rec beach, which is a beach in Vancouver, that's quite famous. Um, it's a big, expensive beach. It's probably the nicest one in Vancouver. And it's right next to UBC, which is the major university.
[00:14:20] So all those factors together, uh, have led to it being the nudist beach of Vancouver. And it has this long legacy in history. Um, but I had never been there because I lived pretty far away, like an hour and a half. And I just had never had cause to go to a new speech. It was this weird foreign, strange idea.
[00:14:41] And this, I remember this girl asking me and I'm like, wow, wow. She's asking me to go to a nudist beach. Oh, I want to score like, she's going naked. Woo. And also just like, I would go anywhere. She proposes. If she wants to go to the dump, I'm going to go there. And so I showed up there and met with her and a couple of her friends.
[00:15:05] And within the first 10 minutes, she took off her shirt and then unclasped her bra and was suddenly tops, topless. And I thought to myself, wow, there could be no other reason that she was doing this rather than trying to signal that she was sexually interested in me. I don't remember being, having this. I don't know how to describe, but like small excitement, it felt like, oh yeah, like this is so good.
[00:15:36] And even as I was happening, I was like, this is a weird sensation. I'm reading a lot into this, this, making this all about me. And she asked me, would you feel comfortable? Like, are you going to take your clothes off? And I tried to play it cool. Like I'd been to rec beach a million times. I was like, yeah, for sure.
[00:15:54] And I went down to my boxers, which in hindsight probably should have just gone, uh, all the way in, but that's where I got to that day. And at some point, as we spent a couple hours on the beach playing Frisbee and just hanging out and getting to know each other, she commented on how beautiful the sensation was to have the sun on her skin, on her chest and on her back.
[00:16:23] I don't think she even remarked on any sense of injustice though, was something that was frequently held away from her, given that she's a woman and she has to wear a bikini top or something. There was no. Resentment or anything, but there was definitely a sense of like, this is rare. It's not often I get to feel this.
[00:16:47] And it struck me like a lightning bolt that I had thought her removing her clothing could only signal sexual stuff. Meanwhile, I, I didn't even consider that. Maybe she just likes the feeling of the sun kissing her skin, something that I take for granted all the time. I was like, oh, well, that's interesting.
[00:17:13] And meanwhile, that whole process of getting down my boxers w which was terrifying. Um, I mean, I remember being a kid and trying to being in situations where my dad tried to like in like change rooms at pools or something, and be like, okay, like, you can change my, the towel and be like, what? No, that's like terrifying.
[00:17:34] What if someone sees? And so. Those two things, the recognition that there was just the potential for freedom and pleasure and engaging, like you just said with the natural world without clothing, on just feeling the wind and the sun. And then also the realization that I very strongly had, the, this notion that nudity equals sexuality, nudity equals, um, yeah.
[00:18:03] That the sexual exchange or romantic exchange. And so coming out of that experience, I really started to have conversations with people. I trusted a lot of whom were a bit older than me and who had been to rec beach and places like that and started to ask, like, what do you think about these things? And they're like, oh dude, go be naked in the forest.
[00:18:23] You haven't done that? Like, oh, I was like, oh, okay. Okay. And lo and behold, I realized that I really enjoyed it similar. I think to what I heard from you. Concurrently or like in parallel with all that, I was starting to learn photography. And so at some point I wanted to start taking portraits and one of the people that I really admired and trusted, it was like, oh, I don't, why don't you do naked portraits of me?
[00:18:51] I was like, yeah, let's do it in a forest. That sounds great. And I think each of those sort of built off each other or gave the opportunity to be ample, ample native to each of them in turn and to explore, like, what does it feel like? What is the craft like? Yeah. It just moved into this beautiful tapestry.
[00:19:13] Yeah.
[00:19:13] Host: I'm hearing a lot of different kind of, uh, beautiful ingredients. So you've got creativity, you know, um, this, this exploration of a, of a kind of a space that you haven't, um, looked into before, or, um, That's around and there's other people involved relationships, um, there's nature. Uh, and, and also it seems like even like an evolution of your relationship with your sexuality.
[00:19:46] And I guess I'm looking for some way to blend this into Buddhism and psychedelics and something that's come up is, um, uh, wandering. And I mean, this is quite a personal question, so feel free to, um, divert things in a different direction if you like, but, okay. I'm just wondering, you know, um, how, um, maybe Buddhism has maybe shaped that space as well as these experiences, um, through your creative endeavors and being around other people that are naked and, um, noticing.
[00:20:23] Those, uh, I, I guess sexual elements within yourself, I dunno. A better way of putting it. Um, yeah. How that's kind of shaped how you, um, you know, maybe approach relational space, um, and how that may have changed. Cause that seems like it was definitely quite a while ago. Um, based on what you shared.
[00:20:48] Guest: Yeah. It's something that's interesting is the way that there can be so much dynamic give and take amongst factors and these things are all independent streams, but they, are you familiar with the concept of bootstrapping?
[00:21:07] Host: Um, I don't think.
[00:21:09] Guest: So simply put, uh, you may have something that's too heavy to lift up, say, you're on a deck and you need to lift up.
[00:21:16] Um, I don't know, a bathtub like a cast iron bathtub or something. It may be too heavy to carry, but what you can do is get a rope under it and tie one rope. So-so the bathtubs like this. And then you have a rope that goes under it and you can tie one end of the rope off. And then on the other end, you pull that rope up as much as you can go before it gets too heavy, but now it's gone up an inch.
[00:21:41] And so now you can tie that end of the rope off, go to the other side and tie that one. And because now it's slack, because on other sides pulled up. Now this one can go more. So in that way, you pull up like boot, each side of the boot, each string of the boot, you can pull it up a little bit and then alternate.
[00:22:02] And so the combination of time spent in nature. Um, in contemplation introspection, uh, adventure exercising, I like communing with plants and animals and trees and the earth that built off of, I think that was the first thing for me. That was like, that was so much of my childhood was just running around in a forest.
[00:22:31] Um, and then when I started to explore Buddhism and mindfulness, I was literally just trying to, I think that happened next. And that was just the invitation to notice what our intent signals occurring in my being or that I have access to. And then what is it like to try and attend to those without falling prey, to losing my focus or to capitulate into giving in and just being taken over or to fighting or fleeing from it.
[00:23:06] And one of the things that. In that practice. So commonly referred to as meditation is that when there is a sharp signal, such as pain or excitement or pleasure, these are excellent times to practice mindfulness, to practice meditation. By definition, the signal is louder. It can be really boring or irritating or awkward.
[00:23:37] I find when I'm trying to meditate and things are more or less in homeostasis because I'm like, oh, I'm so familiar with all that stuff is all boring. But what I'm trying to take off my clothes in a public space, and I'm not saying like any public space, but like, and they can a nude beach. There's, it's not a thing I do often.
[00:23:59] And so there's this immediate novelty and also all the stress hormones of it. Everything of like, this is taboo. You can't do this. And in that moment, there's this really bright signal that I can if I choose to. And if I identify the opportunity, okay. It's so easy at that point to be like, oh, wow, okay, whoa, look at that signal.
[00:24:21] Where is that in my body? What does that feel like? And so I came to identify the practice of exploring nudity and consciously excavating my sense of sexuality with, uh, as I said before, a fertile area of introspection or of awareness. And I'm really grateful for mindfulness and meditation as it encourages me or rewards me for paying attention.
[00:24:54] And I feel like I can do that in almost any situation. So when I find ones that are like really, uh, connect well, or then I find a lot of fertile, like. Stuff in that area. It's just like, oh, this is such a treat. I'm learning what it's like to be me. Oh, I didn't know. I was insecure about people looking at me from behind.
[00:25:12] Oh, I didn't know that I was like, oh, all these things. Wow. Otherwise I'd just be like mindless, but here I am fully like alive in this moment.
[00:25:24] Host: Yeah. It's a beautiful thing. Looking at that as a, as an opportunity for practice, rather than an issue of some sort, it's like reframing it in a way. And as a question comes up for me, and this is maybe binding the conversation into more of a psychedelic space of, um, curiosity around what you, what you feel into when I mentioned the overwhelm in that space.
[00:25:54] And maybe when there are too many of those signals coming up for you to be able to process or handle. Um, maybe too many is not the right phrase, but quite, quite a lot more than what we experienced. Ah, there's, there's an intense feeling of excitement here or fear or, um, something that I haven't experienced in this way before I'm going to, uh, pay more mindful attention to what's going on, breathe into it and look at the subtle rosy, a feeling to the subtleties of this experience.
[00:26:22] And maybe I could learn something from what's going on. Um, but either with, um, maybe, uh, an unfamiliarity with this terror with a certain type of terrain, um, there's a feelings of overwhelm that can come up in those moments as well. And that's just something that I'm kind of, um, filling into as a question point and, um, maybe, yeah, just the wondering.
[00:26:49] If you've ever felt like that in, uh, you know, I mean, even the overwhelm itself is another signifier I feel. And I'm just kind of curious about what comes up for you when I mentioned that.
[00:27:01] Guest: Sure. I just want to clarify and see if I, if it's okay with you to paraphrase your question, to see if I'm understanding correctly.
[00:27:11] What I hear, what I'm hearing is that you're asking if in spaces of psychedelics having used psychedelics can be the sense of, oh, this is too much. I'm actually in danger. I'm being assaulted by the level of intensity here.
[00:27:28] Host: Yeah. I, I feel like the question kind of would apply to the psychedelic space, but also other spaces within life that it may feel like the difficulty level is ramped up in an unfamiliar way.
[00:27:41] And even maybe people may feel this. In kind of the beginnings of a meditative kind of journey as well. Yeah.
[00:27:49] Guest: All the time. Oh man. It's always, I always think that's funny when people encounter that, which most commonly they do. And then they're surprised I'm not, it's not funny that they're surprised, but it's funny how many people are like, this must be weird that I feel this way.
[00:28:06] It's like, no, that's pretty common. Um, okay. So I guess there's different dimensions that I can respond to. I know I'll put it to you as to which you're most interested to, and there's the pragmatic, which is a protocol that I've developed for myself or that I operate by, which is to assess threat levels and to, um, decide next behaviors, um, in order to like respond to what's going on and to make sure that things are actually going to move forward in a safe way.
[00:28:38] So that's one thing, like that's a very pragmatic, like action-based, um, Protocol. Uh, the second w is this concept of, I think of it as centerdness and its teachings that I've learned and practice through a sense of groundedness and being centered. Um, maybe I'll just, I think I can tie the other ones into the, that one.
[00:29:06] So are you interested in both of those are in one of those? Uh,
[00:29:10] Host: both are nice.
[00:29:11] Guest: Yeah. Okay. So from on the protocol level, on the pragmatic, well, before I go there first, I should say to your question of, have I fell out that whole yeah. Hold all the time, then definitely the sense of. Things are starting to flash in my peripheries.
[00:29:28] There's this idea that there's like sirens or like lights all around. It's like, okay. Okay. Things are getting real, like stretched then I don't know if I can get out of this like danger, danger. Like, yeah. That's a real thing. What
[00:29:40] Host: I've heard from you though, is like a bridge between that state to almost like an excitement for the opportunity to practice in it.
[00:29:47] Guest: Um, yeah. And that's, that's been very consciously cultivated over many years, uh, to the point where now that that's, um, not always, but that's like more times than not the state that I get to. And I revel in the intensity it's really pleasurable. Um, which is something I've heard other practicing Buddhists talk about.
[00:30:09] Um, and I was like, oh, that sounds amazing. If you could get to a place where you're not panicking, but actually feels good. And, um, yeah, I'm really grateful. Younger me who chose to start learning and practicing these things because, uh, I feel much more resourced and study as a result. Um, so from a very practical level, I have this concept or this like, um, situation in my mind where, uh, or the scenario where I'm on a battlefield and the details of are don't matter.
[00:30:44] What matters is that there's things out there that could hurt me and I'm exposed. And so the very first thing in the protocol is, um, establish if there's a real threat so that I have this like movement, this embodied sense of step one is look like, identify where is the threat? And so if I look up and it's like, okay, there's somebody with a gun, um, aiming at me.
[00:31:12] And I just want to pause to say that for people in the world, this is going on, right. And as much as we are able to talk about this and explore it in a intellectual or philosophical way, I also hold in my heart that heaviness, that there are real, real points of contention and violence going on right now.
[00:31:30] So
[00:31:34] I hope there are well and safe.
[00:31:40] So with the threat of violence, if that's can be identified as being real, the second step is not what to do about it, or how do I respond? Because often I, in my experience that can be, to take too long to analyze it's too big of a search space. And so I'm not going to try and do anything clever in the second step.
[00:32:03] What I'm going to do is find cover or, uh, evasive maneuver. So if I'm standing out in a field and someone's pointing a gun at me, it's like, okay, how do I get behind a wall? Right. And then once I get, once I get to a place where the, there is distance or shelter between me and the threat, then the third step is okay, reassess, how real is this danger?
[00:32:29] How imminent is? What, what are my options? And then from that from step three, it breaks into a bunch of sub different sub routines based on, um, what is actually going on. Um, but often what I find is that the step to physically look, okay, most people don't do that. Or at least I'll say for myself personally, that for a long time, I skip that and I went straight to, okay, how do I freestyle a creative solution to get safe?
[00:33:01] Or my needs met. And then I would get all caught up in this. Ooh, I could do this, but what if this happened? Oh, what? And then I'm trying to anticipate and make these clever plan. Whereas, I wasn't even sure, like, wait, was that actually someone with a gun or was that just a stump in the sh in the shade? And I couldn't actually tell, so for myself, I really try to establish, okay, what do I think is out there that is a potential danger and is it actually there?
[00:33:34] And so that protocol, I, I like run through every time there's like a major, like a trauma or whatever, all these things. So that is to say that this protocol represents that there are things that are dangerous in the world, and there are some things that ought to be avoided or defended or acted against.
[00:33:55] And I want to acknowledge that we can't meditate and float above conflict. I think that's important to recognize. The second concept is this idea I have of. Centeredness and it's, I feel it all the time. I was feeling it earlier today. It's can be extended to social interactions, to personal decision-making, to relationships, to business dealings.
[00:34:32] So many things where essentially we can find ourselves like in homeostasis or in a centered position. And then I'll give you the instance I was thinking of today. I reached out to a friend a week ago and said, Hey, I have a pretty urgent thing to talk to you about. Could we find some time to talk about this?
[00:34:51] And they're like, yeah, by all means, um, we can do it tomorrow. And then the next day came and they an hour before our scheduled meeting, we're like, oh, actually I have to postpone. I can't do it. Um, can we reschedule another time? And I was like, oh, damn. Okay. Cause this is pretty urgent. Um, but yeah, I guess we can reschedule.
[00:35:13] And so in that moment I felt myself shift a little bit out of center cause I was like, oh, okay. I have to be flexible. I have the world's asking something of me and I'm not going to get the thing that I'm hoping for, or that feels, uh, right or helpful. So I need to adjust and move to, um, make or to react to the changing environment.
[00:35:36] And unfortunately this friend at that point, uh, stopped responding. And so for a week they left me on read and not ghosted me. But even though there was this, I was very clear about what the urgency was. And I described in detail, like, um, not, not like, but I said quite clearly like, Hey, this is what's going on.
[00:35:59] Um, this is why it's important and for reasons unknown, and I don't know what they are, that person deigned to take time away and to not, um, offer a time to speak. And during that time I kept it kept nagging at me cause I'm like, shit, this needs to, this needs to be dealt with. And I'm like, oh, what a, what a jerk?
[00:36:23] They're not like prioritizing this, even though they said they would. And then I have all these narratives, all these relationships to the events, all these biases, all these hopes, all these desires that I hold. And each time I noticed it, I noticed that it felt like there was these, I don't know, like monkeys on my back or something that were like pulling me further and further away.
[00:36:48] And that might be a little bit abstract, but I think more concretely, what I noticed was that anytime I had caused to be reminded of this, I felt a very sudden constriction often in my stomach and my heart. And I felt like hunched over and like leaning over. I like these different movements that like we're not sitting upright and like centered and like with ease full strength, there was a physical, like, like, like being pulled off access.
[00:37:22] And for, I think the first time I really consciously observed this phenomenon, I was doing yoga. And I realized that when I tried to extend myself to make a yoga pose, I could do it straining. Oh yeah, I'm doing it. I'm doing it. And then I come back and I'd be like, oh, that fucking hurt. Why was I doing that?
[00:37:47] And it was an entirely different thing. When I started doing this practice called Ashtanga and I had a teacher, a beautiful teacher who came to me and like one day I said, what are you doing? Don't do that. Just focus on doing the smallest version of the thing that you want to do while breathing. And if you can't do it while breathing in a centered place, then you probably aren't doing it.
[00:38:11] Right. And so I realized that when I went out of center and I was stretching and trying to accommodate and trying to be flexible and not checking in with my own, like, how does this feel? Is this nourishing, is this sustainable that it was going to hurt? I was going to get injured. And also I wasn't going to have the power if I wanted to like, actually do something in that pose.
[00:38:35] I was strain just to get there. And so tying it back to this concept of. Thanks for your patience. This is, that was quite a long explanation, but tying it back to this all too familiar sense of overwhelm and of, ah, shit, this is really scary. And I don't to do, I try to identify, is there a real threat? Okay.
[00:38:57] There is a threat, but say it's like, I've done a bunch of mushrooms. I've done six grams of mushrooms and I feel like I'm going to die and the reality's ending. Okay. Well that may be true, but that's not as true as somebody holding a gun pointed at me. So I actually don't know yet if I need to run to cover.
[00:39:16] Okay. So what do I need to do? Ah, so fork in the road, don't, don't need to get through the cover thing. So instead, how am I in center physically? Like actually in my body. Oh no. I'm like really tensed up and I'm not breathing.
[00:39:39] Okay. Well, what if I realigned my physical machinery? Oh, I'm so uncomfortable. I don't feel like I'm eminently going to cease the existing or a CCE, like experiencing, ah, okay. Back to center at that point, it just becomes noticing all the different ways that I'm leaning out or pulling away and be like, oh, I see that gently trying to corral them into a place of connection and, um, strong relaxation, relaxed.
[00:40:23] Thank you for sharing that.
[00:40:26] Host: Yeah, that was, that was a really nice way of kind of putting it. And it's interesting to look into the way you think about things as well. I think it's really a unique and, um, really helpful as well. So I appreciate your sharing on that. I've um, I've got this curiosity coming up now around, um, how just kind of deepening this kind of area a little bit further, and again, we're going to be playing with it between this space of psychedelics and Buddhism through a lot of the questions, but I was wondering, and I don't usually go back to what I've written, but this one is really something kind of.
[00:41:06] You know, I'm, I'm really, really curious about this, especially with, um, the way that you just shared, uh, your protocol. And if you have any other protocols, please feel free to let them fly. Um, at any point that feels right. Um, but I'm wondering about how your process of gauging with Buddhism and things like, um, deal funds, styles, audio, Dharma, podcasts, and I'm sure other kinds of, um, areas of fascination and exploration in your journey have informed specifically the preparatory practices and, um, the integrate integrative stages after your psychedelic experience.
[00:41:45] Have you, is there any way that, um, yeah. Is there anything you'd like to share on that specifically? So, um, leading in, and then also after, um, the experience and if there's anything that kind of blends in with, um, you know, your learnings and teachings around Buddhism.
[00:42:04] Guest: Mm. Um, first off, shout out to Gil fronds, Dell.
[00:42:09] He is a phenomenal teacher and I'm massively indebted to his generosity and his wisdom and his care, uh, for any who are interested. He has yeah, the free audio Dharma podcast that is, um, part of his Dharma studio or his temples, um, offering. So there's a bunch of teachers on there and they've been doing it for years and it's totally free.
[00:42:32] They don't advertise or anything and it's phenomenal. So
[00:42:34] Host: good. So it's really, really good. I came across, I, I kind of had a look into his work after hearing. You mentioned him and. Uh, those specific one around, uh, this contemplation and discussion point that I've been having recently around kind of, um, tending to others and tending to yourself.
[00:42:53] Um, and it was just, it was amazing. It kind of cleared up a lot that I was really confused about in, in just the short video. So it's yeah, you can definitely tell there's like a depth to his, uh, wisdom. That's it? It just feels, um, yeah, it feels like a blessing to have come across it. So thank you for, thank you.
[00:43:12] Opening that door for me and for
[00:43:14] Guest: all of us, I'm so stoked because yeah, the more I know how hard it was for me to find, um, teachers who seem to get it. So, uh, I'm grateful to help reflect that light and light more candles. Um, I just, just tying into what you just said about the idea of helping yourself so you can help others.
[00:43:32] And that balance there. I realized for myself that when I was out of center and when I was with a friend who was trying to help me. If I was like trying to be flexible and meet them in like bridge pose or whatever. And then they're like, oh, I can't do this. And they pulled away. Well, I was just going to fall flat on my face, which didn't help either of us as opposed to taking responsibility, radical responsibility for like, I'm going to do the poses that I can with as much strength and grace and generosity as I am able to.
[00:44:01] And hopefully together we can both do that and make these beautiful movements as humans and spirits. Um, yeah, so that, that for me is also a practice and a question that I continue to try and learn, especially as somebody who works with mental health and healing, it can be really taxing to, um, yeah. Cause it was just a lot of demands.
[00:44:24] Um, so your question was about, um, integration and, uh, preparatory preparation prior to
[00:44:33] Host: separation and integration. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:44:35] Guest: Um,
[00:44:37] Host: And any protocols or any links with Buddhism that have kind of informed that process for you or, or that ongoing kind of development of what that looks like in your journey?
[00:44:47] Guest: I think I still have so much to learn about this, which is humbling.
[00:44:52] It's funny to, to see the ways in which I have learned like early on in my teens, I started to look on websites like airway vault. And I mean, there wasn't that much, these days have a troll easy there's so little resources about how to do psychedelics well. Um, but I'd really tried to do research and try and learn best practices.
[00:45:15] And I learned about set and setting and about, um, Yeah. If you can be in natural places, how that can often help and that's something I really take into heart. Um, I'm also really fortunate in the last, uh, five or six years to be exposed to underground practitioners here in British Columbia, Canada, uh, who have thriving, cultural, his often historically informed practices.
[00:45:40] And they've done tremendous jobs of mentoring me and guiding me through ceremonies and showing me, um, how there is knowledges, like bodies of knowledge, schools of thought and entire cultures that have refined the science of psychodelic transformation. And that was eye-opening. It was very different than the, um, Arrowhead volts, simple suggestions of like, make sure there's no cops around and that you, yeah.
[00:46:14] So some of the things that come up, it's funny though, and something. Comes up often is an amazes me about this world. And reality and consciousness is that they're psychedelic practices and they're, I mean, the multitude of different traditions that I've been exposed to overlap and really dramatic ways with things like Buddhism, even though, as far as I know there, there's not a ton of Buddhist psychedelics, which I'm trying to change.
[00:46:44] Um,
[00:46:45] Host: there's not a ton of what, sorry,
[00:46:47] Guest: like psychedelic Buddhism. It's not, I'm not aware of many Buddhist cultures who have overt or explicit uses of psychedelics. There's a couple of instances, but, and famously in the seventies, in the states, there is a ton of that. Those two really merge with people like Timothy Leary or rom dos or many more.
[00:47:07] But, um, one of the things across consciousness across, um, studies of mind, Are these traditions that pop up and for instance, just like, feel your feels be pay attention to sensations as they arise and don't try and resist them on the face of it. So simple. But if anyone has ever made a concerted effort to practice this, if you've ever tried to sit still for an hour and allow what comes up to flow through you, it turns out there's some skill or craft or art to it.
[00:47:49] And for me, I've been amazed to find how directly, like one for one, the teachings of Buddhism apply or appeal or like are appealing during psychedelic journeys. So for me, it's indistinguishable. Um, um, I think I would say I'm a Buddhist first and a psychedelic like practitioner or like psychonaut, um, or lover of
[00:48:17] Those medicinal spaces. Um, and it's all informed by Buddhism. So like whenever I'm thinking about integration or preparation, I'm literally just thinking of like the main teachings of Buddhism. And so, um, I might just highlight one, cause I think if a listener or for yourself was to take away anything, this was such a fine distinction.
[00:48:44] This was such a specific delineation that I did not notice for so long until Gill pointed that out. But it's the difference between bare attention and mindfulness. Are you familiar with those terms?
[00:48:59] Host: Yeah. I've heard you speak about it. Um, I, I've never heard it put in that way with that language, but yeah, but please, could you share a bit more?
[00:49:09] Guest: Yeah, for sure. So I think in the west. In recent years. And it's important to recognize that it is only recent. Like the first Buddhist really got to north America only like 60, or I guess like 70, 80 years ago. Like it's not that long. They've been very content to hang out, mostly in the east and, uh, yeah, not bugging anyone so recently in our culture in north America and in, uh, like colonial descendants, we've adopted this notion of mindfulness and I don't know about everyone listening, but for myself, when I first heard about mindfulness, I thought it was lighting incense and sitting down in stretchy pants on a comfy cushion and trying to breathe and just relax and just relax and melt and maybe play some like whale song in the background.
[00:50:07] And I think that's what mindfulness has come to mean for the average, like, I'll say American or Western or here. Where, unfortunately, that is not, that is like the most superficial or face value version of mindfulness. Mindfulness actually means to attend to whatever is coming. Whatever is arising, regardless of if it's relaxation or stress, anger, arousal, the desire for violence, maybe it's the explicit or like the very engaged participation with a central pleasure.
[00:50:46] You can be mindful of all those things. So to be mindful as a verb, but there's another important part that's missing because before you can witness a sensation, you must be aware that there is a sense of. And I wish somebody had told me this for years while I was meditating, because I was sitting there like trying to figure it out.
[00:51:12] And I never knew if I was doing it right. And I didn't get it. And at some point someone was like, oh, by the way, you can practice noticing things. You can practice employing what's called one name for it. It's a translation, but it's bare attention. Also somewhat ironically, given what we've talked about, it can also be called naked awareness or simple awareness or sorry, naked attention or bare attention.
[00:51:44] So what is bare attention? Their attention is the ability to detect changes in what you feel and by you. I mean, your mind, your brain, your heart. Your physical body, your toes, your stomach, your spine, maybe it's something just around your body. Maybe it feels like you have a sense sensory experience of a couple of feet in either way.
[00:52:16] Maybe it's auditory. Maybe it's what it sounds like to hear things coming from a distance bear of tension is noticing, identifying when a sensation is arising anywhere in your being. I think of it like a radar, a multi-dimensional radar and one. Wow. We can pay attention to like the world and I get to operate this radar.
[00:52:46] What a great toy. This is awesome. It's so cool. And so you can practice that. That's the, one of the parts of meditation. Is to practice noticing, ah, a sensation is arising and then maybe you triangulate. Oh, and it's in my left thigh. And so bare attention is the first step. And it precedes the second step of meditation, which is of mindfulness.
[00:53:17] Mindfulness is directing the spotlight of your awareness to that sensation. So you've got a ping or a blip on your radar. You've figured out where it is and now you're zooming in or you're directing more, uh, attention to look closer at it. It's not just a blip anymore. It's something that you're inspecting or analyzing, or at least witnessing.
[00:53:48] And so in this way, if you, if you want to practice this kind of meditation, it's not the only kind of meditation, but it's one kind. I think generally this is referred to as for pasta or for me, it comes from the Terra, Veda, Buddhist tradition. It's called insight meditation. There's many different names.
[00:54:08] The names don't matter, but if you want to have a hyperlink to click and go down, if you want to practice this kind of meditation and just simply noticing, ah, I'm feeling a thing, and that thing is over there, what, and then the next step, what is it like to feel this thing I'm excited? Do I resist it? Does it feel warm?
[00:54:30] Does it have a texture? Is there a sound? Um, those two things for me are like endless in their possibilities of discovery and connection.
[00:54:44] Host: Yeah, some, I'm just kind of feeling into what that may, that process may look like, kind of leading into a psychedelic experience and even afterwards the idea of making space for that, and maybe some experiences that you've had within the journey itself, um, I guess, um, may have more of a chance to blossom or to filter through, into your life because you're providing the space for them to, um, marinade, um, through, you know, I mean, one thing is what you've mentioned, but there's also like con contemplation around certain areas, um, of what you've gone through.
[00:55:30] So yeah, I'm just kind of, yeah, I guess I'm kind of wondering, um, and I appreciate you sharing that and kind of giving that kind of clear distinction and it is such a beautiful. Insights have come across. It does open things up quite a lot, because then you can kind of go back to the cushion and, and back to life in a way where you've got a little bit more to play with.
[00:55:54] And even like you said, the possibilities are quite endless, like thinking about that in nature, or think about that naked, naked in nature. Wow. Now it just goes, you know, this there's a creative element to what you could do with that space.
[00:56:07] Guest: What if you notice? Oh, there's so often. Okay. So excited when I took psychedelics and experienced, altered, like sensory inputs.
[00:56:19] I remember being like, oh shit, those are the hallucinations that everyone warned me about. I can't focus on those too much or else I'm going to lose my mind. And I threw down the shutters and I closed myself off to them. And it's been a process of many years of trying to get to a place where, when I noticed the simple attention.
[00:56:40] The naked awareness. When I noticed that I don't immediately follow that up with a pattern of behavior that I've scripted at a young age that needs to happen in order to stay safe. But instead to be, what is it to ask myself? What would it be like to simply witness this? Yeah,
[00:57:02] Host: I think about that when I get an email of some sort.
[00:57:05] Yeah,
[00:57:05] Guest: exactly. Even the most mundane of circumstances. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:57:12] Host: So, yeah. So I'm still kind of curious about what you do after an experience and if there's anything built up around that area like that, you've, you know, like you said, it's still ongoing and it's been informed by these, um, th the depth of these kinds of, I'm guessing in indigenous kind of peoples of different lands and your experiences with, um, these underground, um, groups that have derived their knowledge and their kind of ways, um, from their own experiences in those spaces.
[00:57:41] But I'm wondering what your individual and unique process has evolved into at this, this moment. And if there is some, some sense of, um, patterning or protocol that you do, um, you know, regularly kind of, um, cause I know, I feel like there's a, there's a, there's a, uh, I think of the word clay, but there's like a malleability, um, directly after an experience where there's a.
[00:58:07] I've noticed an opportunity to, um, yeah. Um, reshape something or play with something that can often be overlooked. And, um, it, it, it happens all the time, either consciously or unconsciously, but especially in those potent moments directly after some wondering, yeah. It may be more directed. The question would be, is there anything in those specific areas that you, that you do?
[00:58:36] Guest: My question is really alive in me lately. It's something I actually haven't done psychedelics for. Um, I don't know, a couple of months, at least now, um, which is somewhat unusual for me. I think I use them like every three or four months typically, like historically. Um, do you
[00:58:53] Host: align that with the changing of the seasons or with any kind of posts?
[00:58:58] It's just
[00:58:58] Guest: a feeling thing. I really do pay attention to the change of the seasons. That's something I'm actually trying to study a lot more and trying to tune into. The medicine wheel or the seasonal calendar, as I think my ancestors may have referred to it. Um, I don't, I'm not so strict to so much on when though.
[00:59:19] Um, there are definitely some times of year where it seems to make more sense and so they do follow a rhythm. Um, but it's really just intuition based. Um, I just want to give gratitude and thanks to, uh, some of the people who have, and cultures who have helped me learn these things. Um, everyone from the Suela tooth and the Squamish peoples of, uh, what's now called north Vancouver.
[00:59:48] I'm really grateful for time spelt spent with their elders, where they taught me about steadiness and patience and of hard work and diligence and to be in our process and to not rush it and to not try and step out of it, if it feels intense, I'm also grateful for Mira homies, who, um, from Mexico who worked with pot and for the wisdom that they've carried and shared with me.
[01:00:18] And I'm also grateful for my ancestors, who I feel like in different moments have showed up and have offered their guidance and their insights and their perspectives to help me understand which may, what may feel good for me. And so I think the thing that most jumps out, or we can roughly call it at the beginning, middle and end.
[01:00:46] And so the middle is what we've been talking about of noticing what's coming up with as much like relaxed strength as possible. When I was taught to meditate, there's a. Pose where you sit and it's one where your eyes are on the ground, or like a couple of feet in front of you, but your eyes are open and your body is strong.
[01:01:09] It's not like a, you're not slouched over or your muscles are engaged. It's a relaxed strength. So I try and cultivate that during those experiences and try and be like alert and like working and being like, what is this? Like, I'm participating. It's not happening to me. I'm not controlling it, but I am participating in it.
[01:01:30] Okay. So that's during, in the beginning, the, the biggest thing is, um, intention setting and just really trying to ground it, like establish, why am I doing this? Do I have any secret fears or desires? Because at least in my experience, if I'm not aware of them, they're going to come up and I don't necessarily want to be blindsided by them.
[01:01:56] So. Oh, man. I used to be so against things like prayer and, um, all of this, this stuff that I thought was super voodoo and like uh wishy-washy and I realized that like, prayer can be as simple as like asking yourself, like, what are you hoping for? And just saying, like, just feeling into like, oh, I would really love, really love to learn more about what it means to be connected to my family.
[01:02:29] And I have this prayer that I may in whatever way is right. I experienced that. So having a sense of like, oh, what are the possibilities? And humble it humbly approaching it with a sense of curiosity and excitement. I think that's, um, or maybe it's also. And honest appreciation of like, there's this part of me, that's really heavy.
[01:02:54] There's the part of me that feels broken and sore. And I just really want help.
[01:03:03] I think spending time to excavate, like to pull away some of the debris or some of the normalicy and to really figure out like, where are the veins of myself that, um, want to be connected with or want to be, uh, enriched or yeah. Brought to the surface. So set an intention, be active during the ceremony and participate with gentle, relaxed strength, and then to finish.
[01:03:41] Oh man, I think this is the part that I'm still trying to figure out. I think integration is key and I find that. More and more that as I mature and I think for a long time, I was like this lone Wolf sort of running around like army of one person. And I recently got married. I am part of a community. I have active relationships that have people who rely on me.
[01:04:14] I have clients, I have all these relationships and it feels like, oh yeah, I'm not just me anymore. I am part of a network. I am part of family of a community. And in that I've, it's really become clear to me the last couple times I've done, um, psychedelics that the integration necessarily involves those people.
[01:04:42] And I can no longer be like, okay, I'm just going to go in there. I'm just going to do my thing. I'm going to come out. I'm going to take whatever time I need. And then reenter like reenter society. It's like, no, like you identified there's this I'm going to be changed. I'm going to be radically different.
[01:04:59] I'm going to become plastic. And we know from neuroscience, like your brain physically changes like plasticity. When someone consumes something, a powerful substance, like psilocybin or a Wasco or a Bufo or any of these things, it introduces neuro-plasticity where habits can change personality traits, shift.
[01:05:23] And so I think
[01:05:23] Host: for my briefly touch on, um, the neuroscience of that a little bit further, just cause I know that you've studied that at uni. So I'm kind of curious if just a couple more kind of, um, uh, jargon ish complicated. Interesting kind of words would be nice. I don't know around that
[01:05:39] Guest: space. I can avoid the jargon, but I can say this pretty succinctly.
[01:05:44] Um, yep. So two things. One is like one. So we gotta define what brain neuroplasticity is for a long time. People thought, um, when you had experiences, they built up in your body and they locked and they became fixed. So there was this debate for many thousands of years, about how fixed people were. But generally people used to think you're pretty fixed.
[01:06:07] You can't teach an old dog new tricks. You can only learn a language when you're a kid, all this stuff, that's all wrong. That's all, it's actually like, none of that's true. There definitely are advantages to learning things when you're young, but not nearly to the degree that people think. And if you want to learn more about that, um, you can find there's like, I forget what the title of is it, maybe this is your brain on me.
[01:06:30] There is a professor who's in their like fifties or sixties who had never played an instrument and then took a year off a sabbatical from university, uh, to try and learn how to play guitar, to see if they could make their brain plastic and to learn this new thing. And then they compare that to the research they did in their lab with other people, learning skills, across different age groups.
[01:06:50] And lo and behold, everyone has about the same level of neuro-plasticity. Some people are more than others, but generally it has general amounts of variants amongst the population. There are, especially for things like language acquisition. There are what we call critical window periods, where for youth like for babies, if you're exposed to different sounds, um, the smallest units of language are called morphemes and phonemes.
[01:07:19] Your brain will take in all those data points and pull out meaning based on the syntax and the semantics and the grammar. That is to say that, um, there are periods of time where certain kinds of learning are more, um, possible, but the, I think the, the general folk understanding of this is completely wrong.
[01:07:41] You, you can definitely, um, introduce neuroplasticity or change yourself, um, really substantially all throughout your life. So I hope for all of you hearing this, that if you have any set ideas of, oh, I'm too far along, I kind of learn how to be a photographer. I can become a painter. I can't learn a new language I'm already in my forties.
[01:08:05] Like, sorry. The excuse is no longer valid unless you want it to be, then use it all you want. Um, so how does psychedelics interplay with, um, neuroplasticity? Well, really simply. Psychedelics or commonly, um, prompts of like ingesting a psychedelic and prompts, a ton of stress. And there's a bunch of neuro-transmitters and stuff that, but I'm just going to say stress and stress.
[01:08:36] One of the things that does is signal to your body, like in, in this moment, just think about, like, if you saw someone with a gun over there, can you imagine that stress that you would feel and what would immediately happen after that, that trigger or that yeah. What would you, what do you think you might do is fight or flight?
[01:08:58] Yeah. So you'd like come online and you'll be primed for action. Yeah. So stress is a really great way of being like, Hey, attention, you need to do something. Stress actually signals to our brain into our body because by the way, we have neurons in our body, like in our heart and in our stomach. And it seemed knows, Hey, Yo be alert.
[01:09:25] You're going to have to do something right now. And so in that place of activation is the potential to either default to the patterns that are known. And so maybe that's, oh shit, there's a threat of violence. I'm going to run away or I'm going to go fight them. But also there's like, anything you do in those states will be more flexible and have more energy behind them and be more likely to be remembered, especially actions, physical actions, because there's stress going on another.
[01:10:00] So that's, that's a gross oversimplification. That's just, any stress will make you like, come on alert. And it just so happens that psychedelics do that, but the magic of psychedelics and the reason why something like psilocybin is going to be more therapeutic or psycho spiritually, like enriching than something like having someone pointing gun.
[01:10:20] Right. Is that there's a bunch of different like chemical constituent elements that
[01:10:30] reroute brain activity in such a way that your brain is forced to re-examine fixed beliefs or patterns of relating or thinking. So the way I like to think about this is if we have all these different parts of our brain that are more or less specialized, and they each like to do things in certain ways, and generally as you go through life, your brain is doing a really good job of figuring out how can I throw this baseball or write this article or make food in a way that accomplishes my goals reliably, avoids danger.
[01:11:14] And then also isn't super inefficient. And once it figures some of those patterns out, especially as you're getting older, it's like, okay, thank that recipe. Save that pat neural pattern of activity, because it works. We don't need to reinvent it, like learn it. And so when you do, when somebody consumes something, so Simon magic mushrooms, there gets to be these like roadblocks put in on the highways of their brain.
[01:11:49] And it's not just, it's not like the brain shuts off so much as it's just like, oh, you can't, you can no longer go straight from a, to B you're being rerouted. And in that process that brings like, oh, okay, this is no biggie. That happens all the time. This is a little bit more than usual, but we can do it.
[01:12:09] And so it figures out an alternate. This is actually commonly what we can attribute to this hallucinations or the sensory. Like the thing that most people are familiar with about psychedelics or hallucinogens is because it's not say just for your vision, it's not just going from point a to point B. It goes a different way.
[01:12:30] And this, those suburbs that it goes through, like driving somewhere a different route to get to work, those suburbs are like slightly different. So the main message might get through. You might still be able to see, but there's going to be all this extra information that filters in and affects your personal experience.
[01:12:48] And it's like, oh, I thought I was just going to see the same highway that I'm familiar with, but there's all this like weird color stuff going on. And so synesthesia is the phenomenon of, uh, sensory inputs being, uh, overlapped. And so synesthesia is where you taste a color or you smell a sound. By the way, there are actually a number of people who are born this way, um, and just have this all the time to various degrees.
[01:13:16] And it's a wild area to research. If you're keen, I have a really good friend. Who's a very talented, um, jazz musician. And he sees, uh, every note he plays, he sees color, uh, like float through the sky and he's never done psychedelics, partly because he's like, I already see so much, man. So for neuroplasticity and this, this ability to be the, not the fixed rigid wall, but the mold moldable clay part of it's because there's all this novelty and you've made things change already.
[01:13:55] You've rerouted the traffic. And so it's going to, it's like, oh, I always thought from a to B, I could just take this main highway, but it turns out when I go through this suburb, there's so many beautiful things. This. And in that way, you can start to explore new patterns of neural activity or new choices or behaviors or physical motions.
[01:14:16] Maybe you're like, I was only breathing in my, like in my throat. What if I breathe into my belly? Whoa. Okay. Well, I'm going to try to remember this later. Yeah.
[01:14:30] Host: So what comes up for me? And I am cognizant of time. I was wondering, I'm not sure how much more you have. Um, but I, I was kind of, um, in and around this idea of what you're sharing.
[01:14:42] It seems like that breeds quite a lot of potentiality with the shaping of, you know, our trajectory in life. And, um, the lessons that we learned in almost like you mentioned earlier, like an acceleration of sorts, um, increased experiences that are quite profound and meaningful leading to new discoveries and realizations.
[01:15:04] And, um, ultimately, um, it sometimes can be the, can be the kind of, um, the way of things that, uh, from coming from out of an experience, you feel like there's a lot more, um, areas that you want to work on or explore or, um, deepen or look into or sit with, or, you know, whatever that might, that might look like.
[01:15:26] Um, I there's this link that comes up for me, it's been an active area of exploration. And I'm curious to know, cause you said this was kind of, this integration site was still ongoing and ongoing exploration for you and you were looking at the relational space and how, um, yeah. How to kind of dance into that space and the realization that it's not just you going off and then reentering it's all the time.
[01:15:48] Almost like the idea of even, um, bridging your practice in Buddhism with life rather than it be separate on the cushion and, um, you know, from your day to day. But I guess the idea comes up with this idea of, um, and mythology comes to mind and it's an area I've been looking into this, it's almost like, um, are you familiar with the tale of Faust and this idea of almost like.
[01:16:12] Being careful with this huge amount of power and the dangers that come along with that, it's not as, it may not just kind of come. Yeah. You know, these gifts don't usually come without, um, another, another side. So I was wondering what comes to you and what you've have you looked at that aspect of things,
[01:16:33] Guest: for sure.
[01:16:34] Yeah. There's so I've got about another 15 minutes and there's two parts. Um, two parts of this that jumped out at me. I think you're wise to identify that there are risks here and that's something that in proselytizing the benefits of psychedelics, it can be easy to gloss over, but there are, there are risks, they are real and they are tangible and they are significant.
[01:17:01] Some people don't come back from Ms. Steps on this path. And I consider myself someone who can use them or has used them actually. Um, with intentionality and support and it's been fairly safe. And even then there are, there have been significant burns or points of injury resulting from a lack of awareness of how to integrate specifically the integration.
[01:17:33] And so I can say historically where I'm coming from the context, and I think that will give more information. And then I can say where I'm at today with that. I'd love to hear your thoughts too. So for context, I think throughout my life, this radical invitation for plasticity has felt like a limitless gift and just pure good because, oh my gosh, I can change.
[01:17:58] Wow. That's wonderful. And we know from the research on this. Of people on Lon long attitudinal studies of folks who have done psychedelics that generally folks who've done psychedelics are happier, then the people who haven't. And so I, for a long time thought, well, there's this personality test. And there's this measurement of openness, which is highly correlated with life satisfaction and relationships and happiness and people who do psychedelics score better after they do psychedelics the day after the month, after a year, after five years after compared to when they haven't done psychedelics.
[01:18:38] So I was like, oh, it's like a vitamin it's only good. And then I noticed after the first summer where I started to do acid, I did acid a number of times, maybe six times in four, four months, which I consider to be a lot. And some of my best friends, people I really admired and respected and trusted. Had almost like an intervention for me where they sat me down and they're like, Hey, Blake, just wanna let you know.
[01:19:09] We're really concerned about you. We really think the acid's changed you and I had this, uh, Jay Z line come to mind, which is, do you think I worked this hard to stay the same? And I was like, oh yeah, it did change me. That's why I did it. And at the time I was, I think I was scared of their sincerity or the possibility that they were seeing elements of me changing that weren't pleasant.
[01:19:37] And I think a wiser person in that moment would have done more to listen and to understand. And I really tried, I really tried to, um, do what I've heard for feedback, which is really helpful, which is not to like defender, like seek to explain yourself, but to just ask questions and to receive the gift that someone is offering that's, as long as you trust them and you feel safe.
[01:20:01] But I just couldn't understand. I didn't get there. Like, you're just, I just didn't understand what they were seeing. And it wasn't until recently, like many years later, five or six years later, at least where my now wife said similar things after I would return from ceremony and three times in a row, I returned from ceremony one, even with them, with her.
[01:20:28] And there was moments of tension or of conflict in the days, usually like the immediate, like one to five days following where I was in the state of connection and transcendence and like awareness of the, the beautiful reality that I participate in. And yet my social skills were lacking or I was dropping the ball or I was.
[01:21:00] Thinking I have these grand insights that deserved immediate attention and that no, I see clearly, and this is true and we have to do this. And in those spaces the first time, the second time, and the third time I caused harm, well well-intentioned action motivated from what felt like love and connection and joy.
[01:21:27] But in hindsight, I think was like, I've spent a lot of time just really trying to learn from what others have said and also to study and to listen and to reflect on what I feel and what I've come to realize in the past couple of months is there was a big ball or bundle of energy inside of me. And it was looking for a way out.
[01:21:52] And I think I lacked the clarity or the. Level of discernment to identify what the best way to spend that energy was. And so when I smelt an opportunity, I wasn't actually so like careful to check if this is the thing that needs to be like, throw my spirit and my self at, I was just grateful for the, like, I ha I'm alive and I am vigor.
[01:22:19] And I brought, I think in some cases too much, too much to it, too many of my hopes, too many of my fears, I just indiscriminately, uh, directed or sprayed them, thinking that I was somehow like, I don't know, like not enlightened. I've never thought that, but connected to a sense of knowing that was invaluable.
[01:22:49] I think I lost humility in those moments. And so what I've really been trying to listen, and honestly, this, a lot of this comes from indigenous, uh, teachings from north, like from the regions I grew up is to communicate to the people I'm going to be interacting with what I'm going through so that they're informed.
[01:23:12] And then also to budget time on the backend of these traditions, where I'm not thrust back into normalcy or responsibility and to really like four or five days to a week, like maybe even like, if I could like spend time in a cabin or spend time, like doing things that are very gentle and not like rushing back into relationships or into responsibility.
[01:23:47] And we just to finish, we, we know yeah. Go for it. We know that, um, the neuro-plasticity from things like psilocybin and Iowasca, uh, it, it eases off or it decreases, um, like linearly. So on the first day after you're fairly plastic and the second day after your, most of the you're still pretty prostetic and it goes down day by day by day.
[01:24:16] So as far as I understand from the neuroscience, um, generally somewhere around a week, it's like way lower. Is that like a third of what it was in the middle or just coming out of the experience. And then after, um, at that point it's very manageable for most of the. And you can still change your behaviors or like install new habits with more ease and flexibility, but you're not in that place of like, whoa, everything's changing.
[01:24:45] Everything can be flexible.
[01:24:47] Host: Yeah. What I'm hearing and what I'm feeling into as well. My own explorations is this combination of preparation, but also what you mentioned earlier is kind of, uh, almost like the bare attention and the mindfulness together with whatever's emerging in those moments, you know, mixed in with that preparatory kind of plan of some sort that's, that's also malleable.
[01:25:10] I think about it. Like you're going on a trip and you kind of structure most of the trip, but when you're there, you know, you still allow the wind to blow in different directions and Zeke and tag. Yeah. It's a similar kind of thing. And I think that might be a beautiful message to take away, but I'm also just filled with this sense of gratitude and, and almost like, um, an appreciation for how naked you've been in this conversation.
[01:25:32] And how much you've opened up and shared from personal experience. And also, um, I feel like your way of articulating your thoughts and experiences and ideas is, is really beautiful and really clear and simple. So I just wanted to throw that out there and just say, this is it's, it's been a wonderful experience.
[01:25:52] It's just kind of sit and, and be within the space that you've created through that openness and simplicity. Yeah.
[01:26:00] Guest: Thank you so much, Michael, to be completely Frank. Those are things that I try really hard to, like I choose to be that way. And I think a lot of the things that we talk about, um, are my attempts, my sincere attempts to try and cultivate that way of being.
[01:26:21] Um, so I really appreciate any modern that you, uh, witnessed it and thank you so much for being interested and. Putting the work into initiate this conversation. And it's been absolutely delightful both in the conversation and prior to see also the sincerity and the warmth and the intelligence and the way that you have communicated.
[01:26:44] So thank you very much. Yeah.
[01:26:46] Host: Awesome. I just, so I could probably stop the recording there and, um, uh, you know, if there's, unless you want it to say a few things about places, we would like people to check out, um, from your own work. I can definitely add that in if you wanted to share a few things. Um, but I kind of, I do feel like I'd love to have another chat at some point, if you're open to the idea, um, and maybe go a little bit deeper, um, and you know, no, no expectations.
[01:27:17] And if, if you don't feel like it, or if, yeah, there's no time, that's totally fine. But. Seeing kind of time as an open canvas, you know, and any distance in the future as being a possibility for that to happen. Um, I'd love to engage in the space again and see there's so many things I guess, have left just because of time constraints that I'll, that I would've liked to kind of look into.
[01:27:40] But, um, yeah, I just want to throw that out there, so yeah.
[01:27:45] Guest: Yeah, I appreciate it. And yeah, I'd, I'd be open to it as well. Cool, cool. I don't have any plugs to, to put in. I think I would mention that if folks really urgently have a desire or interest in contacting me, probably the best places on Instagram, um, I'm not super active on social media at the moment.
[01:28:06] I'm kind of in monk mode, working on some projects, um, trying to build courses and find ways of amplifying, uh, the messages I come in contact with. To establish a platform that is sovereign and, um, where I can interact with folks, uh, without the potential of being knockoff, due to someone else's decision making.
[01:28:30] Just a little note that actually happened to me already with Instagram. I had a whole career shooting, nude photos and the, they cut me off and they closed my account. Um, so at this point I'm not so interested in continuing to invest in a platform like that, but it is probably my most public facing and accessible place for folks to find me that or on Facebook, if they're so inclined.
[01:28:56] Um, yeah, and I'm happy to have conversations like this. Awesome. Really? I honestly, I really value and appreciate the opportunity to exchange ideas and to learn from, um, both looking at these beautiful, uh, construct. So.
[01:29:14] Host: Sending a loving breeze of gratitude in your direction. Thank you so much for sharing space with us here and now.
[01:29:23] And if you want some more information about our guests, you can head over to today, dream.com and check it, check out the episode section on the page. And also if you're someone that's interested in deepening your practice of presence, if you want to work together with someone to structure a spiritual practice, whether it's an existing one or a new one.
[01:29:47] And if you're looking to build consistency, define your ambition and recalibrate your trajectory in a way that's more in line with wholeness and in a way that contributes and participates more fully in the emergent world story. And it's blossoming, then feel free to get in touch because I'm taking on a small handful of one-on-one quiet.
[01:30:11] Spiritual friends. Um, and I'd love to speak to you if you did enjoy this episode and you felt like you got something out of it, feel free to share it with your community. And if you feel like there's anyone in particular that could benefit from the space shed today, I would really appreciate it if you'd pass it on to them.
[01:30:30] And I'm sure they would too. And yeah, I'll catch you in the next episode. Thank you again, my friend and
[01:30:38] be well.