Practicing presence using the Alexander Technique with Jenny Thirtle
Practicing presence with the Alexander Technique helps you in observing how your body and mind interact. Join us on this journey of achieving deeper presence by being taught how to apply the Alexander technique with Jenny Thirtle. Connecting the mind and body is important in attaining a more profound understanding and response to life. Listen as Jenny shares with us her knowledge of the Alexander Technique and its applications in life.
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Learn more at:
https://alexandertechmelb.com
Full Podcast Transcription:
Practicing presence using the Alexander Technique with Jenny Thirtle
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Jenny Thirtle
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[00:00:00] Host: Welcome to the today, dream a podcast. My name is Michael I'm, a meditation teacher, a musician, a mentor, and a conversationalist based currently in Melbourne Australia. And the podcast is here to help you cultivate your practice of presence so that you may more fully participate and contribute to the blossoming of the emergent world story as it unfolds.
[00:00:29] That's my intention. And hopefully by the end of this chat, you'll have some clarity, inspiration, and possibly some motivation towards that participation and contribution. Today's guest is Jenny. Jenny's the assistant director and teacher at the school for FM Alexander studies. So as part of her work at the school, she runs groups and masterclasses for the voice and performance states since graduating from the Melbourne Alexander teacher training school in 1996, Jenny has also maintained a private practice where she teaches musicians and members of the general public who are in pain.
[00:01:19] She's run 12 week courses at the Victorian college of arts and music department and the media Conservatorium for their bachelor degrees. Currently she's teaching at the VCA in the drama department. So prior to her Alexander training, Jenny studied and performed as an opera singer. She began her music training in 1979 in Wales.
[00:01:45] And she played in many groups in orchestras, including the youth orchestra of New Zealand, whilst in the UK, Jedi has studied singing languages and all things relating through performance. Sorry. I came across the Alexander technique fairly recently through a beautiful friend of mine Johana, and she introduced me to Jenny and this opened up a beautiful world of exploration, which I'm so excited.
[00:02:14] And I feel blessed to be able to share this with you today because the Alexander technique, as you'll soon find out is just a wonderful space of exploration and, um, has a lot of beautiful parallels that can help us connect more deeply through our body and through the practice of presence. Sorry, before we do get into things with Jenny, I'd like to invite you to take a.
[00:02:43] Breadth in with all of us here, listening beyond time and space and coming to our own state of presence so that we may possibly more fully absorb these beautiful sharings that Jenny has to offer. Sorry, I'd like to gently invite you to close your eyes wherever you are, no matter what's been happening in your day or your week.
[00:03:09] See if we can come into a space of connection, deep connection with our breath in this moment, feel free to gently take an in breath in through your nostrils. See if you can take it in really slowly.
[00:03:33] Whenever it is that you may reach the peak, feel free to pause for a moment though, to sing the Saturdays of your experience.
[00:03:43] Gently and just this gracefully releasing on the out-breath repeating the process as many times as you, like, as we move into things
[00:04:09] Guest: with Alexandra technique, we're looking at those really deeply ingrained patterns. We're looking at it from the perspective of a whole organism, let's say so the whole ultimate human being. So the thinking and physicality, there was no separation. So patterns that we have that are, uh, seem to be physical.
[00:04:40] Also have habitual mental processes that go with them. And so how those things come about really are determined by our experiences in our life, our physicality, what was born with a hereditary flight, um, and the experiences that we have. And a lot of those signals that start to arise may well have served us very well at some point or another.
[00:05:11] We don't really do things, uh, in a way that's to harm ourselves, not usually, but, um, the patterns that we build, we don't realize are sitting there and they, they become fairly ingrained and then they no longer serve us. So, uh, with Alexandre technique, we're really looking at how those patterns. Informing our everyday life.
[00:05:42] And so we teach people how to start to look at them and to change them. Really.
[00:05:52] Host: That sounds quite powerful. And I, I kind of want to, wanted to know a little bit more about the technique itself. Cause it seems like this is only how it seems I could be wrong, but, uh, and you know, let me know, kind of helped me out with this, but it seems as though it's something that I haven't really heard much.
[00:06:11] And it doesn't seem like a lot of people know about the technique. So I was wondering, you know, you know, maybe it would be, would be good to kind of, um, share a little bit about, um, what goes on and, and how that process comes to be, um, before maybe we could, before going a bit deeper in the direction that we were heading.
[00:06:30] Guest: Okay. So, um, maybe if I tell you what Alexander's story was, it might help to kind of give us a framework of how this came about. So, Hey, what's the, um, an actor and or writer in the days when people used to read to an audience and Hey, found that he kept losing his voice I'm in the, in those days, he would go off to a doctor or a physician and they would get him remedies and sprays and, and prescribe rest.
[00:07:07] And then you get back on stage and people keep losing his voice. And it culminated in a very important performance that he had where he said to his doctor, well, what am I going to do? You know? And the doctor said, right, rest, the X number of weeks don't do any vocalizing and then you'll be right. So that's what he did.
[00:07:31] His speaking voice was fine, but as soon as he got back on stage and was in Formance mode, Hey, halfway through the performance, completely lost as far as, so then he decided it must be something that he was doing to himself. And that was where he started. Right mirrors. He set up a lot of mirrors around himself and he started investigating, what was he doing?
[00:08:00] That was different. When he was speaking normally, and when he was performing and he made the discovery of set and physical things that he was doing to interfere with his wholesale, it took him another 15 years of experiments and investigations to really find out all these little things that were arising.
[00:08:29] So he was finding that it wasn't just a physicality. It was something to do with the way he conceptualized the act of speaking in public. And so he had to really start to look at how did that thinking impact his physicality. And he realized that we were looking at a psychophysical, uh, coordination of a whole system.
[00:09:00] So, um, he came up with some physical things that were interesting in that the relationship of his head to his spine, to the rest of his body was impacting what happened. But in order to change that he had to see what he was doing because with his mind was thinking and start to investigate. Well, when I go to do that particular activity, I tighten and disorganized my head and neck in this particular way.
[00:09:40] How can I now change that? And so he came up with, um, his, uh, two favorite words really is inhibition and direction. And so. He had to observe what he was doing. He then had to say, I don't want to do that. I'd like to energize myself to do this new thing. So, uh, it was a huge discovery really. Um, and in the relationship of the head to the whole of the body, but also then the way that we thought we think, and we do this.
[00:10:19] Host: Yeah. So there's, so there's this kind of, um, aspect of developing a sense of awareness or a presence in the body. And I, I think if looking deeply into a lot of spiritual traditions, you save this as well. So there's an interesting kind of link I can see forming already there. And I think there's a sense also of, you know, deepening that presence in the body brings you deeper into the present moment because you're, you're you're right.
[00:10:47] You're not off somewhere else because you are, you are kind of in tune. And I guess the question comes up for me is, um, developing that communication or even being able to kind of witness that, that gaps to be able to make a difference or to be able to change direction. I mean, it sounds like he's has spent a lot of effort and a lot of diligence kind of working and experimenting and finding a way through.
[00:11:12] Um, is there anything in that area that comes up for you that you may like to share about the specifics of, of, you know, what that process may look like with this specific technique?
[00:11:22] Guest: So he hated this old himself and if we were as diligent, we could do the same, however, Hey, devised a way I suppose, of using his hands to help guide people in the direction that they need to go.
[00:11:43] So that it sorta fast-tracks, it it's like we can, we can start to come, uh, as we use our hands, we guide people into a better coordination, so they can see how their thinking affects this physicality, that this actually no separation. So the use of the hands in a teaching, the technique is actually part of it.
[00:12:08] Um, and that's a skill that's learned to her period of three years of training. So he did use his hands when he was training people. Um, and that's what he taught people to do as well as observing and using a verbal case as well. Yeah.
[00:12:31] Host: And then how do you know where the right place to be is, is another question that comes up because it's like, okay, you're kind of seeing someone and you're using your hands, but yeah.
[00:12:41] Like, even when you're looking at yourself through all these mirrors, like where are you meant to be in comparison to where you are? You know,
[00:12:48] Guest: so that's a good question. So there's really no, well, there is a, there's an optimal organization of the physicality and it facilitates, uh, ease of movement and a sense of ease inevitably.
[00:13:06] So if when we move, we suddenly find that we're restricted in. Mike, we pretty sure that we're kind of a little bit off track. Uh, so, you know, pushing through pain and that sort of thing is actually not really something that we would encourage people to do, but we would encourage them to stop and start to think about what, okay, well, am I sitting down on myself with my head and trying to do movement and it's restricted.
[00:13:36] And then we start to guide someone to allow their heads to move and not be stuck. So we're wanting them to be mobile in all directions, not held, but not collapse either. So it's a very delicate sort of balance with the head, suddenly facilitates a coordination through the whole of the spine torso. That means we can move easily.
[00:14:05] It also means they can start to see what we. Uh, going ahead to do something and that thing, wait, we have a reaction that's a squashing or collapsing in response to the action. That's where our mind comes into it. So we're always responding as human beings. What we want to get to know is whether the response is one of expansion or one of contraction.
[00:14:37] And we all know the one of contraction really easily, which is, you know, we get a fright and that's immediately what we did. And this is, this is, uh, you know, a lifesaving, uh, mechanism, but we don't want to be there all the time. So, uh, you could take something as simple as a, as a task. Uh, rights if ask someone to sit down, they could just give themselves a moment to think.
[00:15:07] Well, okay, well, do I just do it reactively or can I take some agency over this and have a sense of length and cleanness of my mind? I decide when I sit down and at what speed. So I'm not letting my pattern of just reacting, um, Tyco.
[00:15:26] Host: Yeah, this is, this is something that really interests me because what you kind of just pointed to in that moment was this it's, it's, it kind of connects you to this idea of that.
[00:15:36] Every motion that we do on the deepest level has a ripple out into reality. And there's an effect that comes out from that. Whether we see it or not. So we're able to, um, realize, and this is almost like a physically embodied version of that or a space to begin or something. Um, if we're able to work on that on a really micro level that the impacts I believe could be quite profound when they ripple out.
[00:16:01] And, and this is, this could, you know, this is, as far as we zoom out, this could be affecting generations to come. You know, if, if, if we're connecting. Uh, if we're looking at what our thoughts are, our intentions and then our movements throughout this life and how they do, um, have a flow on effect and how it begins with the sense of presence in this moment.
[00:16:27] And coming back to, you know, coming back into what we're actually what we're actually up to rather than being off somewhere else on this kind of ingrained habitual motion.
[00:16:38] Guest: Yeah. So, you know, in a sense you could say that what we're looking at is when people, uh, prime themselves forward into the future, worrying about what's coming up or anticipating what's coming up, which takes us completely, it disconnects us from the physicality.
[00:16:58] Physicality then has to just take care of itself. Oh, we might be remembering something from the past and dragging that experience with us. So then we're no longer actually right in the moment again, however, that doesn't mean that we can't learn from our experience and we can't, or that we can't plan. So planning for a future event has to be happening right now.
[00:17:26] That is my action. My action is to coordinate, to plan for something that's coming up, not to be in it and disconnected. So the technique gives us an opportunity to go, okay. My thinking and physicality are one thing. And so everything that I think has a physical component to it, whether I know it or not, the more skilled we become at applying the tools of the technique, the more we can start to see those really deeply ingrained things that we can see ourselves.
[00:18:06] So throwing forward, Um, and anticipating, and not actually taking the time now to take the steps towards the things that we're doing. And so each step along the ways and moments of bright now, not, uh, uh, throwing forward, even by 10 seconds, you know, it's like, I know I don't want to be worrying about the thing that's going to happen in three months time, but I want to be planning the steps I'm going to take towards it and stay present as I do that.
[00:18:44] So it's, it's kind of interesting in that what Alexander found was that he said, and gaining that action going forward into the future is the thing that unbalanced.
[00:19:00] Host: Can you tell me some? Yeah, I know we've been kind of dancing and speaking around this, but I'd like to learn more about this and Ganey thing and what else his discoveries were and maybe what some of your discoveries around in gaining in your own life may have been as well.
[00:19:11] Yeah.
[00:19:13] Guest: So the idea of end gaining is where you could say, you know, that old saying the end justifies the means. So that's in Alexandre wealth. That's like, no, it does not. And so by staying present to what I'm actually doing right now, coordinating my mind and body in right now means I can take the next step and the next step and the next step towards the thing that I have an intention for.
[00:19:47] So the difference between having an intention and the. A final goal that I'm striving for subtly different, but it's really important because I think a lot of the time when people start letting out on the site, I think, oh, I'm not allowed to have a boat. Uh, yes, we can. We can't function without having some sort of, you know, plan for our lives, but we don't want a big graph thing them before they've arrived.
[00:20:20] So it's like that whole land gaining thing is about coming back to now and noticing that I've got an intention for that thing. Now I know the pathway I need to take each moment to get there.
[00:20:35] Host: It feels like. That we've got the intention for may look different to what we envision it in this moment. You know what I mean?
[00:20:44] Like we don't know what, how that's going to come about or come together because when we're not in that space.
[00:20:49] Guest: That's right. And so if you have, say, for instance, if you look at, um, a performer, somebody who's, um, so my world was the classical seeing world. So if I were planning to, you know, those a performance in six weeks, if I was focused on that, and then I'd just get completely sort of discoordinate.
[00:21:14] Cause my body would be here today. And my mind is worrying about what's happening in six weeks. So coming back here, taking the steps to do what has to be done in order to head for that means that I can then change things in the moment. If suddenly things take a different turn. It's like, okay. Somebody just asked me, I have to sing that from up on the top of something.
[00:21:40] Well, I didn't think about that one, you know, three weeks ago, but if I can stay present, that is no problem.
[00:21:47] Host: Yes. It's like it it's like you'll handle it when the time is right. And it will, it will present itself, um, in the, in the perfect way. As long as you, you there's a sense of trust in that as well. I feel
[00:21:59] Guest: yes.
[00:21:59] And that trust has to be built up through, uh, lessons, regular lessons so that the person can start to learn to trust their thinking. Then you thinking. Uh, cause it's in the beginning, it does feel a bit like stepping off into the
[00:22:17] Host: unknown. And it seems like there's a, quite a bit of beauty that may arise as well.
[00:22:21] Cause this is, I just kind of getting this link between is this wonderful teacher of mine. I'm not sure if you've come across his work ticking that hard and he's got this, he's got this kind of idea of even with these footsteps, you know, that, that is kind of, that is the end in a sense that the means or, you know, whatever, it's, it's the other way around because the footsteps are actually what matters, not where you're going.
[00:22:46] And there's a beauty in each step as well.
[00:22:48] Guest: That's right. I'll tell you balancing these two things really against each other. So this moment of, of, of that foot going down is, is, is a, is that a whole thing in itself as we then type the next one, which then means I've arrived at the thing that I was going to be doing.
[00:23:07] That's the final intention performance or whatever it happens to be.
[00:23:11] Host: Yeah. Yeah. This is like, yeah. It's wonderful to hear, hear about this technique and to learn more about this and how, you know, just the beautiful kind of links between it and life and how kind of yeah. How alive that is for me in my exploration at the moment.
[00:23:27] So I appreciate you sharing this. This is like, this is quite exciting. Um, and this idea of kind of, um, you know, everything being interconnected and how different parts of our being, whether it's our, you know, within our psyche or within the physical body, how they kind of compensate for areas of tension or kind of, and then, you know, maybe you've got a pain up here, but it's really, um, you know, something down here and the link between, um, tension and emotions is coming up as.
[00:23:59] So it's, it's a, it's quite a lot, you know, you're talking about also posture and endurance and, um, you know, coordination and all these kind of aspects and you throw in emotions in the Mexican, it seems quite overwhelming.
[00:24:14] Guest: Yep. And so we start very gently with people. We look, so we start, if you like on the outside.
[00:24:23] So a person may come because they felt some pain. So we're looking very much at the, at the physicality in that moment to find out what they're doing in that moment that is purposely causing that pain. Now we're talking about pain. That's a bit like nonspecific. There's a lot of non-specific back pain where people don't have ruptured discs or anything like that.
[00:24:50] They've just got pain. And usually that's because. What wayside miss you saving themselves. Now, when I talk about yourself or oneself with talking about my thinking, my history, my physicality, my emotions, my spiritual life, all of it is myself. None of it can be left out because it's all influencing everything.
[00:25:18] So we take a step back from that because that's overwhelming is just that I'm like, okay. So if this person has got a pain in their back and the number, what are they doing on the surface that I can see, uh, to, to create that pain. And usually people are pulling their head back. And so as soon as the head goes back, the lumbar spine, Hey, try it.
[00:25:47] Just collapse your head back a bit. And you find that something moves and your lumber. And then when we think about the head to something a little bit forward up the spine can elongate the head, goes back and wait and title or way collapse. And so just something like that, as simple as that, we put our hands on the other person's head and move them into the chair in and out of a chair to practice getting the head releasing for that back to lake them.
[00:26:20] So they're not compressing themselves. That's the stop then what happens is that we say, well, okay, I'm going to ask you to go out and sit in the chair. And as soon as you ask somebody to sit down, then all their baggage, if you like, that's attached to that activity starts to. Okay. I hit that. I can press that back.
[00:26:45] So what is that? That's their reaction, their inbuilt, um, pattern to the task of sitting down that they didn't know they were doing. So we say, well, okay, let's see. If you can just hear me ask you to sit down without reacting in that way. Can you instead ask your head to continue to release a way for your back to leg and don't actually sit down yet that do the task, but notice the reaction in your mind and all the activations that starts to bubble up before you've even got to sit down.
[00:27:28] This is how we then start to intersect how our thinking affects the way we move. So posture in a sense. It's not a real, not a thing. It's actually an expression of how we're organizing ourselves. So as I like found the teachers were not really overly concerned with posture, the posture will improve as a result of an improved organization.
[00:27:53] That's thinking.
[00:27:55] Host: Hmm. Interesting. When we think about the idea of posture, like the posture of our lives, maybe
[00:28:01] Guest: yeah. It's a cluster of minds as well. I mean, that used to be an old saying, you know, somebody was doing that. We say, well, they're posturing. That's sort of doing something in their mind as well.
[00:28:14] And it's really connected in that way.
[00:28:17] Host: So w what kind of got you onto the Alexander technique? What got you interested in, what was your kind of first glimpse into this and where did, where was this excitement? It seems that you have, what was that born?
[00:28:29] Guest: Uh, so I was, uh, um, uh, Many years ago, a young opera singer.
[00:28:35] And I was very fortunate. I had, uh, an opportunity to, um, work in a repertory theater and doing singing as well. And a director there had just come. I was living in New Zealand at the time and he'd just come back from the UK. And he said, oh, this thing called the Alexander technique. I'll show you, my antenna went up and I was going, I'm sure you can't show me without having learnt how to do it.
[00:29:04] I'm not going to have you put your hands on me and sort of protect. Anyhow, I, I, my aunt center had gone, oh, this thing really happened. I think because, uh, actors and musicians, their body is, is tool of trade as is. They're thinking they can centralization for characterization and musicianship and all that.
[00:29:29] That started something in my mind. And then finally, when I did go back to the UK, um, uh, to study further, I went and had Alexander lessons. So, um, my singing teacher at the time used to send all his students off to an Alexander teacher. Uh, and I just got totally fascinated by it. And to the, to the point where eight years of lessons, I went, I think I brought to teach this.
[00:29:59] So I fell, I trained and, uh, stopped seeing a performer, but started teaching Alexandre technique. And I'm teaching musicians, because what I found was there was a singing teacher. I had my Alexander teacher and I couldn't quite work out. How does this work in the same room was, it was a bit mysterious to me.
[00:30:25] So I, I really decided that I had to kind of find out how do I, how do I teach people who are musicians to put this into practice in order to, uh, make their lives easier? I can play more, better, easier, more fluidly or creatively.
[00:30:46] Host: It seems like it would fit in so well for so many people's lives, not just musicians, like an act it's like, it just seems like it's, it's really the core of what we're talking about is, you know, quite universal.
[00:30:59] Guest: It is. And I think that that's, uh, it's, it's, it's fantastic. It's just, it's something you apply to everything. And, uh, the people are doing things at a high level. They don't have much, uh, leeway for error. Most of us, you know, in everyday life, you know, we can sort of pick up something a bit badly and we can get away with it.
[00:31:24] Uh, but, um, uh, high high-level musician or, um, sports person, they don't have a lot of leeway. They really finely tuned and they just have to deviate slightly and they use them. They can do some somehow.
[00:31:39] Host: And, and in your own life, has, have you noticed that the, yeah, maybe the question would be in what ways have you noticed that kind of flowing in, you know, um, maybe even into your relationships as a whole, you know, um,
[00:31:57] Guest: I apply it pretty much all the time. I do a lot of cycling and I'm always thinking how I'm going. Um, I'll think about it while I'm cooking dinner. I'll just be standing there, staring something I say, oh, I just, you know, do less and go up a little more and myself from my feet to my head, um, I think what's really interesting is that with children, uh, they're very good at pressing your buttons.
[00:32:30] And so, uh, just stepping back and having a moment and going, okay, I could just inhibit my initial response to that and re coordinate and see if there's a new way. So I did try one. I found it quite interesting to do, and my children were very little and they were having a fight about something or other sitting there and battling each other.
[00:32:52] And I remember standing there and just watching and going, okay. I could join. Start getting cross. I could just wait and inhibit and re coordinate myself and it didn't take very long. They just turned around. They went what? Oh, okay. So it does have a, it has an interesting impact because it's quiet, it's oneself.
[00:33:21] It gives you an opportunity to respond differently, but it also changes the way that other people turn them, see you. And that I find really
[00:33:32] Host: interesting. Yeah. Well that, that's it. Yeah. It's like you mentioned, everything is connected without any separation. So the sense of you just employing this state of presence within the relationships might allow you to kind of, even, I'm going to take a leap here, but.
[00:33:53] Coming to a deeper state of being and in doing so possibly even love and understanding. And I think people interacting with that deeper space, it's bound to have an impact, and that may even flow on to the people they impact. You know? So this is huge. Yeah. So
[00:34:13] Guest: I think that part of that, then to me, it brings up that question of judgment.
[00:34:18] And when we teach people how to apply this technique to their lives, the very first skill I have to learn is observation of themselves. And as we just take a moment to sort of pay attention to it's like meeting yourself right here, way long with no judgment, no beating yourself over the head with, I should be doing such, oh, I shouldn't be doing, oh my goodness, that's bad.
[00:34:47] But all of that dialogue can drop away and it's like, okay. It's just how I am at the moment. It's I just observed some deep running patterns and I can go. Yay. Okay. I've got an opportunity to change that right in this moment. And so with, with, with children, I think it's very easy to get caught up in the anger thing, you know, and they get very frustrating, but to stop and just go done.
[00:35:18] I'm not going to judge myself in this moment. I'm equally not going to judge them in this moment. We're going to say what happens if we just go, okay. That's all just being here for a minute. And then suddenly they start laughing. So yeah. Ridiculous. It all is. Yeah,
[00:35:40] Host: it is quite funny and laughable and it's, it's interesting how it could have easily gone, like a situation like that could have easily gone in a number of other directions that were quite, uh, quite a lot more tense, you know?
[00:35:51] Cause it seems like there is another theme coming up for me is like beside your releasing tension and just letting go again.
[00:35:59] Guest: Yeah. And that's a really interesting thing because if we release so much tension we'll collapse, how much tension. So there's a balance of activation of being alive, combined with a release and expansion.
[00:36:19] That means we can move through life quite easily and freely and actively.
[00:36:25] Host: Could you say that last part again? Yeah. Cause, um, yeah, this is interesting. So. Yeah. Okay. Could you just repeat what you just said?
[00:36:35] Guest: So what I see sometimes is when people come for a lesson and I go, oh, I'm so tight and they try to relax and relax and relax and let them mind.
[00:36:45] And they just collapse and collapse. Okay. Actually, no, you need to be a little bit more interested in being here. Yeah. So that's the activation of our system, which is about being alive and in this moment is not overactive and it's not underactive. And so I guess what I find at the moment is people are they left that to them, their lives generally, cause we're sitting at computers more and therefore they're losing toe and then they lose.
[00:37:19] Then they get, then they get tight because everything's dragging. So then they released more and nothing changes except they get more and more sort of. This coordinated. Then when you start to get people to be activated a little bit, that's all most pairing of the pain, because when now I'm balanced with ourselves balance of gentle activation for a task no more and no less, so relaxing and releasing often results in connect.
[00:37:59] Um, so we have to kind of re praying what it is to relax. We want to be relaxed, but not switched off and collapsed. And that tends to be a state that happens a lot.
[00:38:17] Host: Yeah, definitely, definitely makes sense. It's it's kinda reminded me of this idea of we weigh in, in Taoism. Have you come across that?
[00:38:28] It's kind of what you just mentioned. It's like a sense of, um, you know, moving around about things with not no effort, but kind of the least amount necessary and, and this flow taking place. And also, you know, this kind of links up to what we were saying earlier around, um, things kind of, I dunno, it seems as though it seems as though, as you're walking through life, if you can find this balance point in time, like obviously everything's constantly shifting and there will be kind of recalibration as you go, and that's a constant dance within itself, but there is a sense of almost, um, the next step kind of presenting itself.
[00:39:07] And we're not going to know till, till we get there. It's like what you said about the singer and the position that you could only know one shot in that setting. So, yeah, that's a very interesting kind of observation. And now I'm kind of wondering where the breath comes in. So I'm sure there's an element of a breathing in all of this.
[00:39:27] Guest: Uh, yes. So, so the thing is, is that mostly when people are not well coordinated. So when I'm saying coordinate, I'm talking about their mind and body coordination. So as soon as that gets sort of tuned up in that way, writing starts to change. Okay. So, and so, you know, a good coordinated system will be breathing.
[00:39:53] Now we can interfere with breathing. That's basically an autonomic nervous system will run itself. We will always breathe until we're dead, obviously, but the breathing can be disrupted by, you know, somebody thinks squashed down the function here is not going to work well. And so no amount of breathing techniques are really going to make a lot of difference.
[00:40:22] But once the structure is reorganized and the head is poised again, the breathing will take care of itself. Now we can impose or, or put in place breathing exercises and techniques. But what we're looking for at Alexandre book is a good functioning, natural breathing. So that anything else that somebody wants to do is coming from a place of good coordination already.
[00:40:57] So they'll be able to get more from it rather than using techniques to fix up whole breathing. It doesn't always work. Uh, so, you know, getting in underneath, it's almost like the thing behind the thing, you see what I mean? So the coordination of myself and how I approach something is going to impact.
[00:41:23] Host: Yep.
[00:41:24] That's, that's what you're mentioning or pointing to earlier in terms of the, like, what are you what's being expressed or the expression of what, what is, and it's so fascinating, I've kind of noticed that and this, yeah, this is quite a large kind of thought, it's this idea of like everything being a representation, every single thing.
[00:41:46] So every, every thought every movement, everything we do or think, and beyond that, everything that exists is almost like pointing towards something. It's like a representation of something deeper, which is, which is an interesting thing. Um, I'm just, yeah, so I'm, I'm wondering also there's a sense of almost like, um, either, uh, requirements be like Alexander to spend all this time in now.
[00:42:11] Experimenting with yourself, which seems like it's probably not the Wu way, path of least resistance. And, but then also like, there's, is there a need for someone there, with their hands on you? Like, is there any middle ground and can people do any of this kind of, can they begin on their own or do they really need someone to help kind of in the beginning parts of the process or stages?
[00:42:35] Guest: Well, I just thought as if we were going to do it like Alexandra did it we'd have to make the same discoveries. Really we'd have to come up with the same discovery to really make an impact on ourselves. So, but, uh, the hands kind of help to, to keep people on track. Okay. What he did find. And certainly we can have out song the lessons without hands.
[00:43:01] And there are teachers who do that. Um, what. What has to be addressed in order to learn it are the impediments. So I tried to sort of make this as simple as possible for when I'm training other teachers, people to become teachers, but that we're learning basically three skills. However, there are things that arise as we learn these three skills that all the things that get in the way.
[00:43:34] So the three skills, very briefly, uh, observation, how to observe, uh, they, uh, the thing that Alexander cold inhibition, which is simply to say no to something, just go, oh, I actually don't want to do that. And then what we call directly, and that's what the energizing of the central organization. So those are the three skills, but what arises when we start to learn them is we find out that.
[00:44:06] And gaining and we have to, uh, be aware of that and see when we're doing that. The other one that we come up against is faulty sensory feedback. And so when we're learning Alexander technique, we moved into places by the teacher that feel really wrong, but the vessel coordination, and they're only feeling wrong in relation to what we were doing.
[00:44:37] So if I give you an example, uh, most people are pulling their head back and therefore sort of squashing themselves. As soon as we balanced the head on the top and get people like, since they often feel like they're falling forward. Now they look at mirror and they see that they're not actually really well organized, but their brain is giving them this signal that this is wrong.
[00:45:03] I fail wrong. And so what Alexander found was that, that little thing that keeps telling me that I'm wrong will always get in her way of being able to move somewhere new. So until we learn how to really move ourselves, uh, it's two inhibits really? That, that little thing that goes wrong, I can't do that. I must feel right.
[00:45:35] Cause that'll be back to a habit. If I feel wrong, maybe this is something new. I have to keep on energizing this direction. That's where the hands can help me go. Well, actually, you're here. See if you can abide with this for a moment, notice it, see how different it is as we do it more, it becomes more accurate and our brain no longer sees it as wrong.
[00:46:03] And, uh, one of Alexander's very early students said that the process of learning the Alexander technique is one of reasoning from the known to the unknown. Because if we don't know, it's even there, the possibility that I could live in this direction, we will never go and do it ourselves. Now, Alexandra must've been quite extraordinary because he did do that.
[00:46:28] And that's the thing that without hands is very difficult for students to do themselves.
[00:46:35] Host: That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I'm kind of relating it to something as simple as an itch while meditating and not reactively scratching it. So this idea of by kind of calming down that reactive function seems to be coming up over and over again.
[00:46:53] And then yeah. Finding that little space in there where you can maybe just sit with the initial discomfort for a moment.
[00:47:03] Yep.
[00:47:04] Guest: And so we, uh, what we do then is we say, well, okay, you notice this strange or unfamiliar sensation. That's your proprioceptive sense of your brain giving you some interesting feedback, as long as it doesn't include pain it's okay. And then you start to notice how it's actually not really a physical thing.
[00:47:29] It's actually my mind, that's more agitated about it than my body. My body is actually feeling quite comfortable here, but my brain is going wrong, wrong, wrong, move yourself. So it becomes a change of thinking pattern, thinking of moving again, it's interrelated. And we start to see our mental patterns as well, thinking patterns.
[00:48:00] Host: Yeah, it's it is fascinating. Yeah, kind of. I was just talking to someone earlier around this idea of not knowing, not knowing where one might be heading in life and being okay with that sense, like sitting in that seat rather than having to grasp at the idea of knowing or desperately struggle in that space, which then brings, it brings along other forms of tension and suffering.
[00:48:26] And I'm sure even in the physical sense as well, because everything translates. So you must see, sorry. I was just thinking that you must see these kind of immense transformations with people from these kind of tight kind of, um, class for past beings into these kind of, you know, butterflies spreading their wings eventually.
[00:48:46] Like I'm sure you've seen many of this kind of thing.
[00:48:49] Guest: Yes. It's amazing what it can do for people. And I, I look back at myself and I go, wow. I'm not that same person. I don't seem to be that same person. And certainly people really do transform.
[00:49:10] Host: Yeah. The, yeah. Be interesting. Looking back at your own life before and after.
[00:49:13] And I mean, it's interesting thing to do anyways, to look at all the lives we've lived within this one and how that's always kind of emerging. I'm curious to know if there's anything at the moment that's quite alive for you in your explorations or in your learnings.
[00:49:29] Guest: Oh, all the time. I can't really pick one out of, I mean, I always, because everybody's so different, you know, a student will come along and new person will come along for some lessons and I'll stop and say where they're at.
[00:49:44] You know, I have to sort of get the sense of where they're at, what they're doing, and I'm always amazed at how different everybody is. So then I've got to be. I've got to be really present to what's happening because I can't have an agenda because this person is different. Yeah, absolutely. And that, that unknown space is an immense space for learning.
[00:50:13] And it's when we can't abide. And a lot of pit comms fight in that space because it's, it's a little bit scary and they'll bring the paragons back in the leaf structures. It has to be like this because, and that prevents a change. And, you know, I see that a lot. And, and my job I suppose, is to gently, gently coax people to say that it's okay to go into that little room of not knowing we just put a toe in there every now and then they may not know really that that's what I'm doing, but that.
[00:50:52] They go there, I go there and they change something. I go hug my play around with that check and then they come back and we go a little bit more, you know, to change. Um,
[00:51:06] Host: yeah. Well, your honor was describing the experience she had with me. And I've been kind of spending kind of fascinating kind of learning about this journey with her.
[00:51:13] And, you know, this is where my kind of, uh, curiosity kind of grew and grew and it's become more and more alive around the technique. But she was saying that when there's, when there's like kind of physical touch happening, it's almost like there's a merging of nervous systems in a sense, and this beautiful kind of thing happens where you kind of you're moving as one or something.
[00:51:34] Can you, would you talk to that? Because that sounds fascinating.
[00:51:39] Guest: So, um, you know, touch, is it, is it immensely valuable? Well, it's part of our systems. You know, we, we value touch and as human beings, we kind of need it. So they, uh, good with the world. I think, you know, um, so what we do with Alexander is that, uh, we learn how to quiet and I run the, the system that then too.
[00:52:13] So rec site intention, I'm a quick call, this cheap, probably an easy way to describe it, but it's the innate energetic life force of upness against gravity that we then start to learn how to actually use our hands and died people with that know the system. So I have to be organizing myself well first, before I can put my hands on my students.
[00:52:46] Otherwise, they'll just feel intruded upon pushed or pulled around. I don't want to do that. I want to get myself going well, when I put my hands onto somebody's body, likely I can help then nervous system to go in that direction to expand without pulling and pushing them musculature.
[00:53:09] Host: So how do you do that for yourself, for you began?
[00:53:11] Is it like a, just, yeah. What do you do?
[00:53:14] Guest: Uh, well, I, I may not do it all the time. It's that I'm applying the same tools that I'm teaching. I'm observing what I'm doing. I'm noticing if I've gone down here or I'm squishing and I go, okay. I don't, I don't want to squish, let me think about allowing myself to, to expand.
[00:53:32] And then if I can put my hands onto somebody's head and, and not get myself here, cause this will feel horrible for them. I've got to stay expanded while I move. Um, as we get more skilled at actually directing ourselves, so energize it and that say, um, it becomes, you can get really, really clear with it.
[00:53:59] The baggage of the reactiveness drops away. And I could get very clear with my thinking so that I could, you know, sort of help somebody to notice, oh, that's what you're asking. Yes. That's what the words mean. We had, this is the physical experience of the words. So we match up quite learning a new language.
[00:54:24] So that's where, yeah. That's where the mind or the body is really important there, because those words that I'm going to say to myself have to name this physical experience.
[00:54:34] Host: It's interesting that you've yeah. You've mentioned the idea of w O w words saying to yourself. I had, I had a podcast a little while ago around.
[00:54:42] The idea of the words that we say whether to ourselves or when we vocalized them as being spells and, and as we, and even as we sing, we can amplify those spells. If we're seeing from this place of cheek that you mentioned. So it's like, where are we actually singing from? And it sounds like you're speaking about the same thing.
[00:55:04] Cause I mean, if we look at that as being some sense of energy and that vibration being kind of going out there and then harmonizing with another being, um, and, and that kind of that vocalization being a representation of that. And I think again, internally the vocalization or the internal chatter is a representation of that, that kind of core energy that, you know, if we're not coming into a state of balance with, or presence with, before we begin, we can end up pulling and pulling, pulling and pushing kind of.
[00:55:40] You know our way through life and people feel the effects of that just as much.
[00:55:44] Guest: Yeah. I know. We have to be clear about what we're saying really, but also knowing that, however we say it, it's never going to land the same as I understand it because everybody's different,
[00:55:58] Host: different language
[00:56:00] Guest: and everybody's got different filters and experiences and all that sort of things.
[00:56:04] So if I say something to a student, I'm listening with my hands to see how that lands and their physicality cause online need to change my language. I might need to get creative about what I'm asking them to do. I might have to, um, use a whole set of new words because the words of, uh, well, the traditional was let your neck be free for your head to go forward and up.
[00:56:34] Now that means absolutely nothing but something. Mike try to do forward. Not that their head. So they're going to do all sorts of interesting things. Okay. Well that doesn't land well for them. They're not understanding what I mean, but I can show them with my hand and go, okay, well, how would you call this?
[00:56:53] What would you call this? And they might call it, I dunno, fruit salad. I said, if it works, that's fine. If it creates this with your body, you could call it fruit salad.
[00:57:05] Host: Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. As we're talking about something, that's quite hard to put words around. And words themselves are quite slippery things when we try to put them around anything.
[00:57:15] Yeah. Yeah. This is, this is all kind of, yeah. Kind of blowing my mind with kind of interest and fascination. When I was, when I was younger, I remember I was, I was doing jujitsu for a while and I was training and I was doing all these other things like swimming and weights and all these things to try to kind of boost that up.
[00:57:34] And I remember just like, kind of looking at the way that I was standing in it feeling like things would just add a whack with my body, but not being able to know a path to kind of bring them back into alignment or something. And that was quite kind of an uncomfortable feeling. Just kind of not knowing where to go and what, what, what that would look like.
[00:57:55] And it seems like the Alexander technique is kind of made for that in a sense it's, it's like a realignment, um,
[00:58:05] Guest: Yes, that's way. Cool. I can do whatever. So it's a, sometimes I like to think of it. As you know, here we are, where we were born with a mechanism that knows how to stand up. How does it happen? Well, most of us don't really know, you know, there I am standing on the ground, gravity's holding me there. And then how do I maintain this uprightness?
[00:58:36] It's uh, it's, uh, a system that's we've evolved with, and we don't need to interfere with it because it's children, children are beautifully balanced usually. Um, and in relation to the ground, uh, that we, we interfere with it and then we don't know what. Then we have no way out. And, uh, I guess that's what this provides is a, is a means to get back in contact if you like, or coordination with that system that's in there.
[00:59:20] And we don't need to be doing the extra to try and hold ourselves up.
[00:59:25] Host: Yeah. Yeah. So it's, yeah, this has got so many parallels to other things that we kind of explore and that I explore as well. And that there's a sense of, um, yeah, like removing, rather like the layers that have been put on top based back to a purity or something.
[00:59:41] And also this side, like we lose so many things that we have that we have when we're children sense of playfulness and curiosity and. Um, a lifeness for a lot of different reasons. There's like another one, but you're just talking, it's like, you're speaking about a lot of things that I speak about on the podcast, but from this totally different perspective, looking at it from almost like an entirely beginning from the body, with the realization of interconnectedness that's, that's fascinating.
[01:00:10] Yeah.
[01:00:11] Guest: And as you say, it's about sort of stopping stuff. So it's like, we, we, we load over at the top of this beautiful coordination, a bunch of stuff, for whatever reason, it doesn't matter. Actually, what the reason is, uh, that's in the moment of an Aleksandra take tech technique lessons, we can learn how to, how to, uh, undo that stuff.
[01:00:38] And so it's more about looking at what I am doing is unnecessary and kind of just stopped doing. Yeah. And that's confronting for a lot of people.
[01:00:51] Host: Yeah. It's very confronting cause we're in these kinds of motions already and it's like putting a bit of a block in the way. And I, and I guess that's the question of attitude comes up.
[01:01:00] Like I'm sure that would be quite an important thing. Like you've already mentioned the attitude of being gentle with oneself through the process. Are there any other attitudes that kind of are important to embody or to keep in mind, at least?
[01:01:13] Guest: Well, you've got to have an open mind, whatever that means, but you know, people do come with preconceived ideas and they come with, I like to sort of say, well, you know, we all have a kind of a style of the way that our brains are fried.
[01:01:31] You know, some people are predominantly more pessimistic as, as a more optimistic. Some people are highly critical. Some are very, very analytical. So it's like, they've got an underlying. Activation of bed brain. Now sometimes with paper, the really, really stuck in those typically analytical, very difficult to get them in their bodies and sometimes can be very, very difficult to, to take.
[01:02:04] Host: Is there a technique that you employ when, when things are really difficult to just kind of be a catalyst for that kind of new birth to take place?
[01:02:12] Guest: Um, well we do table work, which is really nice, you know? Yeah. So it's just like people on the table it's called semi supine. Some people call it constructive breaths, um, lying on the floor, on the floor or on a table with, uh, all kinds of your head and your knees up.
[01:02:32] So your feet are on the floor. Me and then we just take the directions. We start actually running the. I'll done tend to pay it. Just OBS the stay with anything. Now think the length of my head to my, to my tailbone, let them stop like away from each other and start to, you know, rather the patterns of new thinking can calm their system and bring them back into their body.
[01:03:00] You know, sometimes people come because they've been told that they should usually know the good sites. Yeah.
[01:03:12] Host: Um, yeah. Yeah, this is, yeah. This, this seems to be at like a, uh, like we said earlier about this kind of active effort, as well as the letting go combined rather than a forcefulness or something.
[01:03:28] I'm wondering around this. Yeah. So. I'm wondering if there's links there's things I can say with like Buddhism and yoga. And I was wondering what your personal relationship would be with these kinds of spaces and maybe how that's evolved over time.
[01:03:42] Guest: Um, so I used to meditate a lot. Uh, my father paid for me to go and do a transcendental meditation course at 18, and I loved it.
[01:03:54] And I, I stuck with that for many, many years. And then I, I can't remember why I stopped probably because I actually started having Alexandre lessons and I found that there was some really interesting similarities of that, uh, that, uh, mindfulness, I suppose you could call it that present moment things.
[01:04:22] And then I I've spent quite a lot of time doing Buddhist meditation as well. And I kind of find that there are some interesting parallels there with, with the grasping mind and the, the aversion. And, uh, this is a bit like I was describing before something arises. We're about to do something, um, with wanting to get it right.
[01:04:45] So our mind is grasping it really tightly. And if we can just let that go, we can then facilitate ourselves into that activation. That, that, that, that movement, if we have pain, we're often trying to push it away. And actually, if we can stop doing that because that's another mental process and we pull it, stop that as well.
[01:05:12] So applying inhibition again, just say no, no, no. Don't worry about that. Let me just say present with this and my head balance
[01:05:24] kind of like change it. Does it change? You know, so we're not, we're not pushing and pulling. We're sort of abiding in that space in between pushing the pro-life, which again, is that place that you were referring to. And I think that's the learning zone.
[01:05:39] Host: What about yoga?
[01:05:41] Guest: Oh, we do yoga at the training school.
[01:05:43] And, um, yoga's great to apply Alexander technique to anything is actually
[01:05:51] Host: interesting. It's such a, yeah, such a fascinating sharing. And this is kind of like opened up a whole new world for me, and I appreciate you kind of sharing and kind of going into these kinds of spaces, um, and you know, opening up about this and being willing to kind of meet with me today.
[01:06:08] Um, yeah, it's, it's nice to just, um, find something new like this. I'm sure you probably felt a similar way when that director kind of approach. And was had that enthusiasm. And, um, I'm definitely feeling that now. And I'm sure you've probably seen that amongst a lot of people as well. Um, yeah. So I guess there's just some gentle encouragement to find out more if anyone's listening and, and, you know, is there anything you could share about maybe how people could learn more or if people wanted to, um, get in touch with the teacher or you know, about the school or anything just, yeah.
[01:06:45] Share away if you,
[01:06:48] Guest: um, we have a professional website which is called sat or Alex Australian society. If the teachers have found a technique that have an apple and there's a find a teacher, um, facilitate. Uh, the training school is in north Fitzroy in Melbourne, and know people can Google that, find the, they at the school site and give us call or go on to the, uh, to the booking pages or whatever, and find lots of information on that site actually.
[01:07:24] Um, yeah. And then, you know, there are teachers around in Melbourne, there are a lot of teachers in Melbourne actually, so that they can all be found pretty much all of them on the old staff website.
[01:07:37] Host: Yeah. Awesome. Well, definitely some links. I'm very various another curiosity coming up now just quickly around this idea of like, like the combination of, of a few of these things we've spoken about.
[01:07:48] It seems like this it's like a ground level, um, building of a sort of potency of presence. Like it's just, this is like really exciting and yeah, it's just this idea of, um, You know, just how, how nice it must feel to get to a sense of being in a, in a body that's functioning. Well, I even feel like with mine, there's probably many ways that, um, I'm certain there can be like with the adjustments and the, and it's also like a sense of love for your body or something like a respect or this whole idea of your body as a temple kind of thing comes up and cleaning that and looking after and caring for that.
[01:08:29] Guest: Yeah. It's like, um, it is, it's really looking after oneself on many levels. Um, yeah, so, so it's like practicing it all the time and because I teach quite a bit, I'm really just practicing it all the time. So, and I think that, that as I get older, it's even more important so that I don't lose function. Um, that I don't injure myself unnecessarily know all those sorts of things.
[01:09:04] And as we get older, you know, there's going to be things that go wrong. Alexandra. Technique's not a guarantee against anything, you know, but, but it does mean that we can deal with those things in a better way perhaps than without it. So, yeah, my, my thing is that as I age, I'm going to be keeping on going with my Alexandre book.
[01:09:29] Yeah, yeah,
[01:09:30] Host: yeah. I mean, yeah, it's an interesting, I've just been talking, I've just had a podcast on the idea of death actually. And. That was quite a fascinating kind of exploration, but there's this, yeah, there's this idea of, I guess some, there's a sense of this kind of way of thinking of kind of wanting to live forever or not wanting to age, but then there is also this kind of idea that comes up around, um, living well and even dying.
[01:10:02] Well, you know, and while we're here to, you know, if we, if we can have, you know, just, I'm just picturing someone like withering away, watching TV or something, you know, and the sadness of that thought in comparison to like someone that's, you know, quite alive, even while they're. Yeah,
[01:10:26] Guest: it's an interesting thing.
[01:10:27] And there's certainly some interesting books that have come out recently about Alexandre technique and aging. Oh yeah. And it's a series of interviews with older Alexandre. I bet that. And I thought, yeah, you know, that, that there are things that happen to us as we get older, you know, joints don't work so well now is that misuse or is that gesture?
[01:10:51] Is it genetics? We don't know, but the more that we can pay attention and look after ourselves on all levels and function well, the better. And then when something does happen, As a therapist does, I think, um, then we have a way of being able to move through it without it impacting the rest of our lives unnecessarily.
[01:11:20] So, uh, w if I think about, say somebody has to undergo a hip replacement, for instance, they, the tightening and the protection that happens from having something like that happens means that there's contraction. And, and it's hard to get moving again, the less things, but if we can put the skill of Alexandre technique into play, whilst something like that is going on, we can at least start to move through it and not carry on the tightening.
[01:11:55] Instead of being triggered by that sort of event, we can undo them. We notice them.
[01:12:05] Host: Yeah. And what would you rather, would you rather go through that, that hip surgery in one way or the other?
[01:12:12] Guest: Yeah, that's right. Do you want to be compressed at the end of it, or would you like to movable, you know,
[01:12:20] Host: thank you for your participation.
[01:12:22] In this episode of the daydreamer podcasts, I'll leave links on our beautiful guest in the show notes section on the website, where you can check out all their wonderful work and offerings. And if you're interested in working one-on-one with me, feel free to head over to today, dream.com and get in touch.
[01:12:41] Also, if your, a part of the today, dream of family, which. Really only means that you've listened to one full episode and you'd like to go deeper to at least one full episode then, um, and you'd like to participate in some group meditation sessions online that I'm offering for free only to listeners of the show.
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[01:13:31] Be well.