Living a simple life: deeper exploration of flow and the grip of life with Timber Hawkeye
Living a simple life through deeper exploration of flow and the grip of life is an essential part of our lives. As we learn how to simplify our life, we learn about different concepts like doing less harm and minimizing the impact of our choices. We explore how we can loosen our grip on the situations we face in life. Join us in this new podcast episode as Timber Hawkeye shares with us the flow of a simple life.
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Learn more at:
www.buddhistbootcamp.com
Full Podcast Transcription:
Living a simple life: deeper exploration of flow and the grip of life with Timber Hawkeye
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Timber Hawkeye
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[00:00:00] Host: Welcome to the today dreamer podcast. It's a great pleasure to have you here with me. My name is Michael I'm the host and I'm a meditation teacher, a musician, a mentor, and a conversationalist. And at the moment I'm based in Melbourne Australia. So just first of all, thank you for being here with us. The today during a podcast is here to help you as much as possible cultivate your own practice of presence so that you may be more equipped to participate and to contribute in the blossoming of the emergent world story, as it continues to unfold.
[00:00:40] Sorry, today's guest is timber Hawkeye. I'll give you a bit of a rundown or a little bit of a buyer on timber. Timber. Hawkeye is the bestselling author of the book. Bootcamp, sorry, the Buddhist bootcamp and faithfully religion, plus his books and the Buddhist book camp. I keep, keep mocking that up. The Buddhist bootcamp.
[00:01:07] There we go. Podcast offer a secular and non-sectarian approach to being at peace with the world, both within and around us with the intention to waken, enlighten, enrich, and inspire certificate a bit more about timber after trying to find traditional success, love and happiness by working in corporate America for over a decade, marrying and divorcing and living in a condo with a designer with designer clothes in a sports car, timber haul kind of looked at his imported Italian furniture one day and realized Tyler Durden was right fight club reference the things you own end up owning you.
[00:01:49] And it's not until you lose everything that you are free to do anything. Sorry, timber quit his job, sold everything. He owned and moved to Hawaii, which just the backpack and the intention to leave a simple and uncomplicated life with nothing but new found time on his hands. Timbers simultaneously studied world religions and psychology to better understand what people believe and why we believe what we do.
[00:02:18] The journey of it started with letting go of worldly. Possessions quickly evolved into shedding, outdated ideologies as well, old opinions and emotional attachments before long timber found himself living in a Buddhist monastery, sitting in front of a Tibetan Lama and saying with all due respect, I don't believe the Buddha ever intended for his teachers to get this complicated.
[00:02:43] Luckily, the teacher looked around at all the statues and dailies with multiple arms and chuckled for Buddha. Didn't do this. Simba the Tibetan culture did, this is their way. Why don't you try Zen? I think you would like it. Okay. So I might just leave it that in terms of the bio. Um, but I will, uh, definitely share information of where you can check out the Buddhist bootcamp podcast and, uh, you know, join him on all the good stuff available through timber's amazing work.
[00:03:20] He's also got a book with the same title, so that will all be in the show notes. So before we get into this chat with timber, I'd like to invite you to take a deep breath in with me and just find a little bit of spaciousness with one another. Before opening into this new space,
[00:03:42] feel free to gently close your eyes, and this should drive. You might also like to just focus in on an object in the distance, within your field of vision.
[00:03:58] See if you can take the slowest breath in that you've ever taken your whole life gently in through the nose,
[00:04:12] noticing the subtleties of your experience.
[00:04:22] And whenever it is that you happen to reach the peak of your inhalation, feel free to just pause for a moment and exist in this space
[00:04:41] far gently releasing on the excavation.
[00:04:50] And repeating the process once or twice as many times as feels right here, as we open into this conversational space with timber
[00:05:04] Guest: years of practicing, of being in the present moment without any, uh, I want to say arrogance, knowing that we have a feature we can plan for. I mean, I laugh even saying it because we don't know, we don't know that we're going to be here tomorrow, yet we make plans.
[00:05:26] And so it's a very difficult thing. And I think you reached out to me a month or so in advance. I'm like, oh Michael, I have no idea where I'm going to be a month from now. This is really tough. Can I get back to you? And I'm really grateful. You were very flexible patient and understanding, uh, I it's just, it feels very confining for me.
[00:05:48] I'm even having a physical reaction to like, I'm being squeezed into a, you need to be available at this box at this hour for this time. And it's just, yeah. So hi,
[00:05:59] Host: thank you. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Thank you for food. Kind of, um, you know, it's almost as if you hit some kind of a friction point between the, your way of being and the way of being of others, in some sense, because everyone runs on set of schedules and clocks and plans and things, and almost, it's almost like the world begs that of us sometimes.
[00:06:22] Guest: Yeah. Especially with us being in different time zones, conflicting time zones, if you
[00:06:26] Host: would. Yup. Yup. And so this is something that I've been thinking about or feeling into and contemplating, um, almost like on a life from a life perspective of plans and, and reasons for being here and ambitions and. And, um, the idea of making goals and moving into a certain direction and then how that sits with the idea of presence and, um, you know, how to go about doing it.
[00:06:56] It's been kind of a, uh, a point of exploration for me. And it's, it seems to be, I seem to be at this point now where it's like, I'm sitting in a sense of not really knowing what my ambition is, although I kind of feel pretty strongly about the core of it. And I feel okay with not knowing for once. And I've never felt okay before.
[00:07:18] And I was wondering if you've had any experiences like that or where do you kind of sit in that, in that realm of, um, uh, I don't know what you want to call it, um, ambition or, um, trajectory or, um, you know, How you move into every next moment from this sense of presence in the now. Yeah. So just, I guess this might be a nice, you know, yeah.
[00:07:43] Guest: We can start there for sure. Uh, you know, you mentioned goal setting and immediately I chuckle, uh, because goals, uh, immediately take it out of the, uh, take us out of the present moment. And, and my intention is
[00:08:02] right now, what, who am I in relation to what is happening right now today in front of me in this moment, I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. I don't know where I'm going to be called upon to be, but if I set my intention and the thank you, you touched on it quite beautifully that if we just set kind of a, a broader brush stroke of here is my intention.
[00:08:21] Here's, what's at my core. Then we need not worry about the logistics and the details of all of that. It's if we show up with that grounding. At the moment at every moment, then what step to take is, is, is kind of made for us because that's who showed up. But if we try to decide ahead of time who we're going to be in that moment, it's, we're almost tripping over ourselves.
[00:08:49] Uh, so the idea is to have a grounding truth as a set intention on, on the kind of person we, we, we intend to be in show up. And if that person is peaceful, then when you're presented with a difficulty or wonderful or, you know, hardship or whatever it is, you're like, well, the peaceful me is going to show up that's cause that's, that's who I want to be.
[00:09:16] Now I could choose to forego peaceful me and react, but that only takes us farther off our chosen path rather than. Keeps us on it. Does that, am I making sense at all?
[00:09:28] Host: Definitely making sense. Yeah, it was. I was thinking if I'm talking with a friend about this last light, um, yeah, she was mentioning how she, she had always really wanted to get a house and that was her thing.
[00:09:41] And, um, that this was kind of in a sense, her goal and, um, yeah, we were talking about how, you know, he was, um, she was looking at she's actually, uh, uh, like a tarot card reader and she was looking at these like little gypsy, um, kind of things that you put on the back of your car and, and you can drive around, do your thing.
[00:10:02] And it was interesting how we were talking about how the goals could take know a number of different unexpected forms that we may not kind of be able to pre-image and the idea of having the house and holding onto that was a sense of grasping. And we were kind of exploring that it was, it seems like a very kind of similar space.
[00:10:21] And if for some reason, I came up with this, um, there's this whole idea of being here now that, um, that, you know, it's kind of all over the place. And, and I kind of thought into that, and there was something that came after it was as it changes. So as now changes in a sense, so we're always in this moment, but it feels like, you know, there's a change taking place and it's, it's kind of what we're talking about, aligning these values, aligning kind of what we stand for, what we, what what's at the core of, of what we, what our ambition is.
[00:10:57] And then, like you said, that broad stroke, and then as the now seems to change, um, you know, there's a sense of being here with. You know, as that takes place, I wanted to see what came up for you. As I kind of shared that
[00:11:11] Guest: immediately, the, what came up for me wasn't that, oh, she's always wanted to buy a house, like in the future.
[00:11:18] I want to buy a house. Yeah. That the clinging, it sounds like she's clinging to a goal, but immediately what came up to me is where did that idea come from in the past? Because somewhere in the past that became this intention of that, what does that mean to you? And maybe that was what she's really after is maybe a sense of stability or some security.
[00:11:40] And that's what she's after. And the idea that, oh, a house brings that and it doesn't necessarily, but we carry all this baggage with us or what we think it means or what someone told us it might mean, you know? So I always ask people why, like where, what are you really after? And that's what I love about nonviolent communication NBC, because it talks about the, every feeling has a met or an unmet need behind.
[00:12:05] So if someone's like, I really, I feel, you know, if, if the feeling is, uh, uh, I don't know, jealousy, uh, or anger, whatever that the feeling is, all feelings are valid, but I always look behind them going, what are they in indicating are they indicative of a met need or an unmet need? And so immediately when he was like, I need to buy a house, it's like, what, what, what is, what, what are you really needing?
[00:12:33] What is the unmet need there? And that's why I said, maybe it's a sense of security or stability because nomadic life is scary and it feels uncertain, you know? Looking for certainty in an uncertain world is a hilarious dog chasing his tail. Uh,
[00:12:47] Host: and so definitely, yeah, she, she was, she was the one that brought up the tension that, that was arising in her life because of his sense of grasping and the sense of, yeah, she also mentioned we dived into it and she was talking about her family and how, you know, she'd grown up around, you know, a family environment where a house was quite important.
[00:13:04] And then also there's these other factors that, um, you know, come into play in terms of the world around us. But this kind of brings up into my heart, this story I heard to tell about the fishermen. And I probably, I promise not to do this again, but I can't. I was wondering if you could share it because I, you mentioned in one of your talks that you would butcher it and I've tried to pass it on to many people and every single time, I'm the one that does.
[00:13:26] So, so I signed here. You might
[00:13:28] Guest: be able to, do you want me to bust you? Right. That's what you're saying. Well, the thing is, the story has been told and retold so many times, uh, and every time someone retails it. Uh, their local Wharf of preference, you know, a reference, uh, about, uh, a man who is standing on the Wharf, watching the fishermen.
[00:13:49] I think that's the story you're talking about. Yeah. And he watches the fishermen come in and he, he asks him, you know, um, how long were you out there? And the fisherman says, you know, a couple hours and it's like, why didn't you stay out longer and catch more fish in the fishermen's? Is this the story you're
[00:14:07] Host: talking about?
[00:14:07] Yeah. Cause he would go and just have, you know, a Fisher day with his family and that's all he did, right? Yeah.
[00:14:14] Guest: Well, he did that and he came back and he's like, why didn't you stop there and get more? And he's like, well, cause I don't need more. This is it. I've got enough to feed my family. We're good. I'm done.
[00:14:21] I'm going to go home and take a nap and then cook it later and that's. And, and the guy on the, on the Wharf was like, looked at him like, oh, you're such a fool. I'm a businessman from New York. You should listen to what I have to say, you know? And like, you should stay out there longer and catch more fish and whatever fish you don't use, sell it and make more money.
[00:14:40] And the fisherman's like, and then what? And he goes, oh, well then you get another fishing boat and then you stay out even longer and you get more efficient. And then what, well, then you get a whole fleet of boats and you have people working for you, you're selling and you're making all this money. It's like, and then what he's like, well, that's the best part.
[00:14:59] And again, I did butcher it because we missed the whole point of the story, which is, and then you get to just go out for a couple hours every day and just catch a couple of fish and go back to your family. It's like, well, that's what I'm doing now. So like this whole notion of. Always wanting more, it all stems from never having defined what enough is.
[00:15:20] And if we don't define what enough is, we will never have it. And so this fishermen has already knew it was like two fish today. That's enough. That's all I need wanting more. Does not actually more doesn't mean better is ultimately what I took it to mean. But yes, we, you're absolutely right. We live in an environment and in society that, you know, you need to buy a house, do you need to get a college degree?
[00:15:45] You need to do these things. And it's like, but why, what is it that I'm really after? And, you know, I love that my teacher used to say, you know, we talk about the path that someone should. And he said, you know, when you think of a path, you think of an area in the forest from which all obstacles have been removed.
[00:16:03] And you're like, oh, there's the path. And you get on it. Problem is if you find a path through the forest, from which all obstacles have been removed and you get on it, it will only lead you to where that person went. You could only go to where it took them. It may not be your path. It may not lead to where you want to be.
[00:16:22] And so we tend to think, oh, there's an obstacle. That means this is not the path it's like, no, no, overcoming that obstacle is your path. That's part of your journey. Don't turn away from it and trailblaze go where you want to be. Not where your family expects you or society expects you to go. Especially if it doesn't resonate with who you are.
[00:16:39] Am I making sense?
[00:16:41] Host: You're making a lot of sense. Yeah. Yeah. And you, and I've got this real vibe of simplicity from your team for whole class sense of like, this is like almost. Yeah, I get a different vibe from everyone. That's this is once this is screaming out from you or maybe whispering, I'm not sure.
[00:16:56] Guest: Uh, it's a, it's at the core of everything. Uh, because I think life is simple, but we complicated. No, it's I, I don't mean to laugh. I'm not laughing at people. I laugh at our, at our, this habitual tendency. We have to take something so pure and try to improve on it when it doesn't mean it's like avocados, they don't need any help.
[00:17:18] There's so good as they are. It's like, just stop adding stuff to them. They're just
[00:17:22] Host: so good. Am I making sense? Seems like comedy and tragedy go hand in hand. Yes. Yes. I was wondering what's what do you feel like is enough in your life and how would you kind of define that? If, if I kind of, um, yeah, if I was to ask you,
[00:17:42] Guest: I think the first thing that comes to mind of how I define what enough. The challenge. The biggest challenge I had with Buddhism was the invitation to do no harm. And I realized that that's a trap. We can't do no harm. So no matter what you're doing, it'll never be enough because you could always, you know what I mean?
[00:18:06] Like there's your mere existence causes harm. You're one more person, you know, in an overpopulated world, your mere existence is problematic, you know? So I was just like, this is setting me up to fail. I don't like this part of Buddhism. Um, and so I changed it and I don't, I don't think the Buddha would mind, but I changed it from do no harm to do less harm.
[00:18:28] So if at any given moment I am presented with an option and I go, okay, what's the least harm I can cause by making this choice, if I'm going to eat lunch, how can I do less harm? What's the least harmful choice I can make to meet my lunch dietary needs. You know, my, my caloric needs for the day. Um, In the least harmful way with, with the least problematic ripple effects that I know of at this moment.
[00:18:52] Now I may look back and realize, oh, there were definitely other choices, but I can't punish my old self for not knowing what I didn't know at the time, as of right now, as of today, in this moment, what can I, how can I do less harm? And if at the end of the day, I go to bed knowing that at every turn I chose the option that was least harmful to myself and to the world around me, that I was living in line with my values, that I was one less person, you know, causing pollution.
[00:19:25] Then by default, I'm part of the solution. And that is enough, you know? So even if you're just sitting on your stoop, drinking a cup of. That's all you've done today. Fair trade tea then. Yeah, you're already, you know, that's enough. If anything you've done on top of that to help others to alleviate some other suffering.
[00:19:46] That's wonderful. That's extra credit, but enough, it's just not being part of the pollution. I don't know if that answers your question, but that's, it's not tangible. Enoughness um, it's internal, uh, almost reconciling my existence in this world being part of it and figuring out, um, how can I not necessarily contribute to make it greater, but how can I not make it worse?
[00:20:15] It's it's the leave, no trace mentality. If you're staying in someone's home, how can I leave it? You know, maybe even better than I found it, but definitely not worse. You know, how can I, am I making sense? I'm I'm, I'm all over the place with.
[00:20:30] Host: Yeah, so definitely. So how am I contributing to my own suffering and the suffering of the world around me?
[00:20:39] This
[00:20:39] Guest: seems like it. Yeah.
[00:20:41] Host: Yeah. How can you minimize it? And in what ways are you contributing to it? I guess. Exactly. Um, and there's a sense of that question being quite a deep one and there's a lot of layers to it. And like you mentioned, uh, there is also a sense of, um, yeah. How could I do the least amount?
[00:21:00] Um, instead of getting caught up with the idea of doing none at all, because just by being who you are, it's it's happening. Um, yeah. So how do you approach such a large question though? Cause it sounds like, you know, if I'm at someone's house and, um, Being mindful, not to, maybe this comes back to the sense of presence, but I'm being kind of mindful to not leave any trace and leave things as I found them.
[00:21:25] And then if I can do some good, great. But are there other kind of, do you go into like a contemplation or have you done this before into like the different kind of levels of, of how, you know, you are kind of contributing to suffering or how you may be, or may have been, and. You know how you may be able to alleviate that, is that some space of exploration or is it more of a natural flow?
[00:21:47] Guest: I mean, you're talking about the eightfold path. Are you talking about, you know, what is an an and Buddhism? Yes. It's unfortunate that the translation is, you know, right. Speech, right. Action. You know, um, I don't like the word. Right. Cause it implies a wrong, um, I like using the words, uh, conducive or detrimental, you know, is this conducive to the path I want to lead?
[00:22:09] Or is this detrimental? If, if I'm in someone's house as is the making this choice going to be conducive to my intention to leave, you know, leaving no trace or is it detrimental to my ultimate intention? If I want to be healthy, is this choice I'm about to make, come, you know, contributing to that? Or is it detrimental to that?
[00:22:25] You know, it's not right or wrong. You can't, it's just because it's, and because that also it removes any conflict with others, because then you're not saying, well, this is right, and this is wrong, which means it's right and wrong. Absolutely not for me right now in this moment, this decision is either, uh, detrimental or beneficial to my ultimate intention.
[00:22:47] And that's as far as I take it, um, it doesn't, I mean, you can take it as deep as you want, but the next moment presents another question. So I say just, I don't know, it becomes a flow and there are certain things that you can, and again, in the spirit of simplicity, I really like making one decision that makes a lot of my future decisions for me because.
[00:23:14] You know, imagine if every single time you go to the restaurant, you look at the menu, you go, okay, what's the least amount of harm I could. But if you're like made a decision one time, you know what, I'm not going to consume anything. That's deep fried. That's one way I can just eliminate 85% of the menu, because I know that that's not beneficial to my overall health.
[00:23:32] It's delicious and all that. That's great. And if my intention was just to choose the tastiest thing on the menu, then maybe I need to bring those back in. But if my intention is to always choose what is the least harmful to my body, because I'm grateful to have been given this gift, then I will eliminate all of that.
[00:23:50] And all of a sudden, now I have to choose between 15% of the menu instead of 85. And it sounds restricting, but it's actually very liberating. You're actually like, oh, I don't have to be a way to down by decision fatigue. I've already, you know, I'm so free to choose from what I know, no matter which one of these items I'm going to get, it's already not harmful to me.
[00:24:13] I don't know if I'm making any sense that the simplicity really is, like you said, at the core of how do we take these ancient teachings and make them applicable in day-to-day life. And I always go back to food because that's something we all do. You know what we, food, what we eat, what we drink, what we listen to, what we watch, we are deciding how much of what we're consuming is beneficial to us and how much is detrimental to us.
[00:24:36] And then at the end of the day, we there's no blaming. There's no blaming anyone else. Like you, you chose to do that. You know, your stomach's upset because you chose to eat that. Like there's no one else you can be mad at. And that's, and it's not even an opportunity to be mad at yourself. It's an invitation to choose differently next time.
[00:24:55] So it's all a lesson. As long as we remain teachable, everything, and everyone around us will be a teacher and a lesson. The moment we think we know all the right answers is the moment we have boxed ourselves in. And then you can't grow. It's like putting a plant in the little tiny planter. It's like, this is all you're going to get.
[00:25:15] It's like, then yeah, your roots can spread and you can't grow as far. But if we just, yeah. Um, take those boundaries off. It's very, again, liberating is the word that keeps coming up.
[00:25:29] Host: Does anything come up to your heart or your mind just around that specific scenario of feeling like we may know everything for a moment and then recognizing that and then letting go of it,
[00:25:44] Guest: uh, knowing
[00:25:45] Host: like from a personal experience or have you, have you kind of have you hit that wall?
[00:25:50] In the past and as anything kind of happened in that space for you,
[00:25:55] Guest: if I'm understanding correctly is your question. If I've ever encountered something that I thought I knew for certain, and then all of a sudden it's
[00:26:00] Host: kind of certainty and then, and then realizing that, and then letting go of that is kind of what I find that's, that's an interesting space because if that
[00:26:09] Guest: yeah, because especially with Buddhism, there's a really, uh, a lot of focus on letting go, you know?
[00:26:16] And so, you know, I constantly scan myself for any, any areas where I'm white knuckling my way through life and going, okay, this is where I need to not necessarily let go, but at least loosen the grip. And so if you, the first thing that comes to mind is this notion when, when I took the monastic files and I was in full robes, and that was my life and I was living at the monastery and it's like, this is it.
[00:26:39] But it isn't, it, you know, even at the monastery, they tell you, the goal is not for you to make this, your permanent home it's to learn what you can and take it out into the real world. And so. You know, giving up all worldly possessions and putting on the robes was a really big step, but it's not the final step.
[00:26:57] And moving on and wearing the robes in the monastery made perfect sense. We all have the same haircut. We all have the same clothes. We were all one. We were all identical. It went hand in hand with what we were learning that we're all interconnected. We're all the same at the monastery. That made sense.
[00:27:13] But when I left the monastery, but continued wearing the robes around town, all of a sudden the same robes that communicated one message inside the monastery that were all the same communicated, the exact opposite message and the streets of Honolulu. Going look at me, I'm different from everyone. And people started treating me differently, which was indirect contradiction.
[00:27:33] To my intention, which was just to blend in and be one of the people. So then I needed to take off the robes because what was true the year prior was not true then. And I knew it's a funny story because I was on the bus and this lady, the old lady offered me her seat. And I'm like, no, definitely not. What?
[00:27:52] And, and I knew the, and my own teachers even asked me, he said, you know, why, why the robes, why can't you just be the guy in town with the bright eyes and indeed, why can't we all, you know? And so it wasn't about clinging to the robes and saying, this is who I am. No, the maroon robes run through my veins. I don't need to put them on every morning.
[00:28:16] I needed to. When I first took the vows 100%, I don't, I don't regret having put them on. Um, there just came a time when they no longer serve the same purpose. And so it was just as important to take the. Um, does that make sense? That makes sense. Both, both of those things are true. Like there's some people who need them, some people who don't there was a time I needed them.
[00:28:36] There's a time I didn't and, and I needed to remain fluid and flexible rather than rigid because that, which is rigid breaks and that, which is fluid is adaptable. And that stand mentation is remain teachable, remain fluid.
[00:28:50] Host: Why don't you leave the monastery the same, I'm guessing for the same reason or around that.
[00:28:55] But yeah.
[00:28:58] Guest: Yeah. I, um, you know, it was a process of one decision leading to the next and first I was studying with a Lama and then he suggested I tried this other thing and I tried it and before I know it here are, was, and living there and waking up there every morning. And I was like, wow, this is, this is great.
[00:29:16] I love it. I have found my ultimate simplicity. You know, I don't need to worry about grocery shopping because that's not, you don't need to do that here. It's all done for, you know, When I wake up, when I meditate, when I sit, when I don't, you know, it was really, uh, and, and yet I had taken a vow to be of service and there, I wasn't, it was completely off the grid, no internet, no cell phones, nothing.
[00:29:42] And I got a handwritten letter from one of my really good friends and she said, timber, I know you like it there. Who wouldn't. I mean, this is your bliss, but you took a vow to be of service to others. And how, how are you being of service if you're tucked away in the mountains somewhere? I mean, friend, like, yeah, she, she is really wonderful.
[00:30:04] She held up a mirror for me, which is what I needed. Yeah. And you know, she, she didn't judge me. She just held up my own values and said, look, I, you're not living in line with what you said your intention was. And you said your intention was to be of service. And I hate to tell you this, but you're being really, you think where you believe we are.
[00:30:25] To learn to be selfless. And you being at the monastery is the most selfish thing you could do. And I'm like, ah, she's right. You know, so I don't regret going to the monastery, but having learned that, uh, I couldn't justify staying if that makes sense. And so that's why I left. That's why I often transitioned from one phase of my life to the other is because if this, this pot doesn't fit this plant anymore, so we need to replant it, you know?
[00:30:56] And just because the intention is to keep growing, uh, because change does not scare me as much as stagnation does, you know, it's it's, that's when we stopped growing. Uh that's when I go some something's off something. Because everything in nature is constantly evolving. And I think we took to live in line with nature.
[00:31:19] The most natural thing to do is for us to continue evolving as well.
[00:31:23] Host: If that makes sense. Yeah, it sounds like there was this pivotal moment, even with this old lady on the bus, that was quite an important part of that journey as well. And almost like a, I wouldn't say completing a circle, but it's a real kind of maybe a confirmation of that move in a sense.
[00:31:36] And, and where to go from that.
[00:31:38] Guest: Um, yeah, I mean, there's been so many pivotal moments like that. I mean, there was a previous pivotal moment with it, with another old lady who was celebrating her 30 year anniversary at the law firm where I was working. And I was like, I need to get out of here because if I don't that I got a glimpse into my own life.
[00:31:52] So that was a pivotal moment, you know? And then the pivotal moment on the bus and the pivotal moment on tour, when someone challenged me, you know, I abstained from any and all physical contact for more than 10 years, no hugs, no nothing. And just complete celibacy. And this old lady comes up. It's always, these old ladies comes up to me.
[00:32:11] I gave a talk and she found it really moving. And I was at the end and I was autographing books and she comes up to me and she was close to a hundred and she was like 96 years. And she looks up to me and she goes, can I give you a hug? And I'm like, no, you know, because I wasn't hugging. And, and my another friend at that time said, who are you serving by saying, no.
[00:32:31] Yeah. And I was like, darn, you know, like, she's so right. I, I, I took this experiment on for a while because I needed to learn how to be intimate without physical contact, but to what end to really, to a point where a 96 year old lady wants to give you a hug and you shut her down, like you're no longer serving others.
[00:32:49] Now you're just serving your own freaking ego. And it was just this really beautiful reminder that nothing is concrete. It's all fluid. And I must remain fluid if I, if, if, if I am to grow it, I don't know if I'm making any sense at all, but this is really fun to rehash. This is
[00:33:06] Host: your, do you feel like you're making sense?
[00:33:10] Guest: It's interesting. I, it makes sense in my own head and yet the reason I'm I'm. Curious, whether it makes sense to others is because I know that my neurodivergent way of connecting dots does not coincide with what is the neuro-typical way of answering questions. And one path, you know, leads to another and you go to school and you graduate and you get a job and you buy the house.
[00:33:45] And you know what I mean? Like that makes sense to many people. Like they understand that thought process. My thought process is why would you ever want to buy a house? So that's why I'm like, I need to almost double check. Like, am I making sense? Because what typically makes sense to others doesn't make sense to me.
[00:34:06] And the other ways is also true. So I'm always checking because I don't want to, I don't want to move too fast forward. And then lose someone along the way. And I do this one, I give them a public toxin sometimes in the rooms. I said, am I making sense? And three people would raise their hand and go, no, no, you're not.
[00:34:22] Can you try that again? So that's why I check in because it's important. I think in, in conversation and communication too, to check and say, before we move on, did I answer that? Or am I clear because I can find another way to address it if I haven't been, does that make sense? Because
[00:34:40] Host: they just did it.
[00:34:41] It's quite a loving and caring thing to do and it's appreciated. Yeah. Um, so you just kind of, uh, this idea of something that you mentioned. I mean, I had a similar experience myself with one of your old ladies, the one that was, um, at the workplace. And, you know, celebrating the anniversary of, in my case, it was a retirement.
[00:35:02] And yeah, it's an interesting thing. How I'm just feeling like you would do really well at like, um, hanging out with, uh, you know, a bunch of, kind of, um, the older generation and having conversations and then maybe there would be, you know, and bombardment of insights that come through how interesting. Um, but just this idea of, um, uh, the police found from stopping, um, uh, stopping the attempt to label yourself and just allowing that to be open.
[00:35:30] Um, I found that a very interesting point that you made, and I wanted to know if you could share a little bit more, uh, I think you had this idea of, uh, faithfully religion religious at one point. I'm not sure if that's still alive with you, but yeah, I'm not sure if you could expand on that because it has been for me, um, this kind of, um, I mean, it, it, it happens in different ways in different levels, but, um, Yeah, just kind of within different traditions and different religions there's there seems to be, um, you know, uh, a whole rainbow of, of, uh, kind of deputies and gods from different traditions that feel like, um, I can call in and work with and, and, and kind of, um, pay tribute to in different ways of, on my path or that come up in, in spontaneous moments for me.
[00:36:21] And I feel like they're all welcome at the table.
[00:36:24] Guest: Yeah. They're all on speed dial. You can call at any point and go. And that's what I love about it is is you, and I'll give you a perfect example. Uh, You were in a romantic relationship with someone and you needed to seek the advice of, uh, one of these daisies or gurus or masters or teachers or someone you really honor, you know, and, and let's use the Dalai Lama, for example, as much as I appreciate what he has to say, not necessarily the first person I would think to go to about romantic advice about a relationship, because he's never been in one, you know, so that doesn't devalue him in any other area, but that's, he's not necessarily my go-to speed dial, you know?
[00:37:07] Um, not to imply that I have to dial the dial on my phone, but I think, you know what I mean, it's really wonderful. Like you said, the rainbow and the multiple days at the table, um, with whom you can have, you can learn something from all of them. It doesn't mean all of it's going to apply. Uh, but yeah, as far as labeling myself as well, I am so many things and not one of them defines me.
[00:37:32] If, if I claim to one label, I restrict, I, I didn't, I never thought about this for, but defining me, confines me. Um, and I don't do well with confinement. Again, we can point back to this plant in a small, old plant, and I just, it just feels so restricting. And, uh, any label would restrict me, um, to just being that.
[00:37:57] And I'm so many things, uh, and I even the cover of faithfully religious as a little human figure with huge wings. I'm like if I call that my self portrait, um, don't, don't put me in a cage. It's uh, I don't think we're, we're made to be kept in cages. Um, there's
[00:38:18] Host: a, there's this scene that you mentioned earlier that connects to this point around this kind of liberating aspect of doing things like this experiment, you know, until it's ready to stop after you meet the 96 year old grandma or old lady.
[00:38:30] Sorry. Um, so the, the kind of restriction creates the liberation in a sense what, well, I'm not sure if the restrictions the right word, but the sense of kind of a practicing, some kind of, um, I don't know, a disciplined approach or some effort in some area. I'm not sure how you want to. Um, um, the
[00:38:48] Guest: word that comes to me is conviction.
[00:38:50] You know, it's, uh, it's a dedication to, uh, it's not a restriction, it's a redirection. Um, knowing, you know, if you're on the path, it's like, yes, I can take this exit, but it's a loop. It's just going to get me right back on this path, but a conviction to stay on the path. I don't know where it's going. I don't need to know.
[00:39:10] In fact, the moment I know where it's going, it makes the path less appealing. It's like knowing how the movie ends and it's like, oh man, I don't know if I want to finish watching it now because I already know what's going to happen. That's what's so exciting to me about life is, and death is because it's the ultimate mystery.
[00:39:26] I don't know what's going to happen. I can't wait to find out. I'm not gonna rush it, but no one can give away the ending. It's the ultimate. I I'm so excited about it. And when any tradition implies, they know what happens at the end. I'm like, Hey, you just lost me. You know, like I I'm, I like not knowing you're going right back to where this conversation started if sitting with, and my teacher used to tell me to sit with it and repeat it almost like a mantra and a chant don't know, just remind yourself that you don't know.
[00:40:00] And so I constantly say the only thing I know for certain is that I don't know anything for certain. And that's so liberating cause I, I never need to argue with anyone about anything. I just listen. And I, I tell me more, tell me more like, I, it doesn't threaten me if your truth is not the same as mine.
[00:40:22] You know, if you believe the sky is purple and I believe it to be blue, my sky is no less blue just because you built it. It's we can still enjoy a meal together. You know what I mean? It's again, having all those data at the table, um, is a wonderful, wonderful dinner party, uh, rather than just inviting one person and seeing only one perspective, one view, which is ultimately your view and you just, someone's just there repeating to you what you already know.
[00:40:49] It's
[00:40:49] Host: always changing as well. Like last night, the sky was purple for me. I had the most amazing sunset. So it's always in flux. Right. So,
[00:40:58] Guest: yeah. That's and I don't need to know why someone's sky looks broken. I don't, you know, I just tell me, tell me more about your sky. My sky is no less blue. It's just now I walk away from that conversation, knowing that to some people, sometimes in some parts of the world, the sky is purple.
[00:41:18] I have grown just through that conversation. Cause I didn't restrict myself to no, you're wrong. The sky is blue and I will prove it. Like I don't need to be right about this. I, yeah, it's this need to be right. Is, is in itself confining and restricting. I don't, I don't need to be right. Yeah all again.
[00:41:39] Host: So that makes a lot of that makes a lot of sense for me.
[00:41:42] Um, there's this, you mentioned this teacher a few times and I guess I'm kind of, I've got a bit of curiosity kind of building around this being, and I'm sure there's many teachers and I'm sure there's many teachings from this one teacher, but you mentioned this practice of kind of going over it over a mantra to yourself, like don't know.
[00:42:00] And I was wondering if there's any other little practices that come up that have really kind of helped you help others
[00:42:06] Guest: so
[00:42:07] Host: many. Is there anything that comes immediately rises to the surface
[00:42:11] Guest: of your heart? Yes. First thing that comes up is naming or demons. And what I mean by that is, uh, if you're prone to anger or jealousy or just give anger a name, give jealousy and name and, uh, be aware of them as they come up.
[00:42:27] That's a really great way to make friends and at least get to get to know all the different voices. Um, and make a commit movement to follow the voice of the God within of the good within, um, as opposed to letting any one of these other figures run with it, you know, drive the bus. Um, they're all welcome to come along, but, you know, be really mindful of who you allow behind the wheel.
[00:42:49] Um, so that's a really big one. And redirecting, I think that by far as a mantra is what I use most often. People think they need to stop thoughts, so they need to stop the ego. They need to stop. Now it's redirecting and it's kind of like. The programming, a home button on your GPS, on your satellite navigation in your car and saying, this is, this is the path I want to take.
[00:43:16] And not my, even if you get off the path, there's no concern. There's no worry. There's no bullying of yourself or beating yourself up. You just hit click home and redirecting just brings you right back. And that could be a mantra. It could be a friend who you trust to always point out to you, like, Hey, you said you wanted to do this, but, um, um, I'm seeing you're about to do that.
[00:43:40] And that's different than unsolicited advice. That's different than someone you didn't ask to do that telling you that what you're doing is wrong. It's a friend you've entrusted to say, Hey, my intention is to, to again, uh, choose the least harmful option off the menu and your friend's leg. Wait a minute time out.
[00:44:01] You said that was your intention, but you were just about to put in an order for that deep fried blank. You sure that's what you want. And you're like, oh, thank you so much for reminding me, um, that there is an alternative on the menu that I could choose. That would be ultimately in my best interest. And that way you are grateful for people, um, teachers all around you, um, urging you towards a healthier, holy earth, more complete, more in line, more attuned, um, more congruent you.
[00:44:34] I mean, that's because ultimately, you know, Gandhi said that happiness is when, what you think say and do are all in harmony. And so if you're looking to be harmonious, the way to do that is to eliminate the internal conflict is to make sure everything is in alignment. Um, so if someone points out to you that, Hey, you're being hypocritical about.
[00:44:57] The only appropriate response is thank you. Not be mad at them, but say I, that was in my blind spot. I didn't see it. Thank you. Thank you for bringing it to my attention, because if I was to do it, I would create conflict within me. If I can't live at peace with myself, I can't live at peace with others.
[00:45:12] And again, some sour continues. So all of this is a path not towards enlightenment. Enlightenment is not a destination, but making enlightened decisions moment by moment. And that's so another teacher again, um, what you, something that, to answer your question, he said that there are no enlightened beings.
[00:45:34] There's only in mind activity. So the people we perceive as enlightened Dalai, Lama, Buddha, Jesus, he's like, they're not enlightened beings. They just made it enlightened activity. Part of their daily lives. It's like, well, shoot. We can all do that. Just what is enlightened activity? It's activity that is harmonious and an alignment with your values.
[00:45:53] Anything that is not in line with your. Is by definition in congruent and unenlightened. So it's, it's a call to action, to conviction, to commitment, to, yeah. A life of purpose. It brings every moment, a sense of purpose, which I would say is missing from many people's lives. Um, and they're constantly looking for it outside themselves.
[00:46:16] I'm like, it's not that far. It's right in here. So it's a whole lot of things to answer your questions, but there you have it.
[00:46:26] Host: If there's thread
[00:46:26] Guest: you pull on because not
[00:46:28] Host: all unspool, um, I'm being very careful with the thread and if it keeps on spooling, I think that's actually a really nice thing. So if anything else comes up, you know, however long we, we share this space together, feel free to just allow that to unravel because this is wonderful.
[00:46:43] And I appreciate the sharing.
[00:46:45] Guest: Hmm. I, like I said, in the very beginning, you pull away, you know, I, uh,
[00:46:55] The way I live my life is, uh, a byproduct of sitting at that table with all of those teachers and, uh, and learning from them, constantly learning and, and always being a student the moment. That's why I never identify as a teacher. I said earlier, I'm a lot of things, not one of them defines me. That's one thing.
[00:47:19] And one label I'm really uncomfortable with is anyone labeling me a teacher. Cause I'm like, I'm not teaching nobody, anything. I'm just living my life. And if you learn something from it that makes you a student, but don't be so quick to label me a teacher. Cause that sounds like a huge responsibility.
[00:47:33] I'm a sharer. I share what I've been taught and that I'm comfortable with. Um, but the pedestal and all that. Absolutely not. Yeah. Not, not my place.
[00:47:46] Host: So in this, in this vibe of being a, an ever kind of learning students. Yourself, uh, what's most alive for you at the moment in your explorations. And what's been a point of contemplation and, you know, in, in the most recent moments or this moment now I would probably
[00:48:05] Guest: rephrase that.
[00:48:08] What is it, what am I challenged by now? Is that what you're asking?
[00:48:12] Host: Yeah. Like where where's your where's, what's kind of alive for you in your explorations or your contemplations, or is there something that you're visiting or for the first time or revisiting in a new light or
[00:48:23] Guest: revisiting Grinti annually?
[00:48:25] This notion of rigidity? Uh, my spiritual journey has been from the rigid to the gentle and I'm always questioning is some, am I so. Adamant about filing down all those rough edges of rigidity to a fault almost, or is some rigidity important. And I don't know the answer to that. And trust me, the universe keeps giving me lessons of opportunities to go, okay, this is where you loosen the grip a little bit.
[00:48:57] And this is where you hold firm. And this is where you loosen the grip in this, we hold firm. And it's just this, it's almost like I'm looking for just one answer. Like just keep a firm grip or just let go completely. And it's never one or the other it's it's like the student who went to his teacher and the teacher said, you need to go to the left.
[00:49:14] And she goes to the left and the next day the teacher goes, we need to go to the right. And the teacher, the student gets really frustrated with the teacher is like yesterday told me to go left. Now you tell me to go, right? When you make up your mind, I was like, well, yeah, yesterday you almost fell off the cliff.
[00:49:27] So I told you to turn right today, you're almost going to hit the mountain. So I'm telling you to go left and it's like, so I guess to answer your question, it's always about finding that middle path and. And I don't think you find it and you're there for good it's it's a winding road. So moment by moment is just checking all your blind spots, looking on the side view, mirrors, looking, you know, and just readjusting it's, it's a constant flow.
[00:49:54] There's never a plateau of I've reached, you know, some, some states of being that's stagnant. No, it's, it's a winding road and we're constantly having you, can't just set cruise control and let it go. No, this is not, this is not a self-driving Tesla. This am I. Yeah. So I live, um, I do live, uh, permanently, and even though I don't drive it, I like knowing that I can, you know, that it's on wheels and should I need to move?
[00:50:23] I just start the engine and go. Um, but yes, when I got back from touring, um, with the books, I couldn't, again, the idea of confinement felt really. Uncomfortable to decide, this is where I'm going to sign a lease. And this is where, or buy a house like your friend. And this is where I'm going to be for good.
[00:50:43] Like that terrified me because it, it limited my, my freedom, which I think we're all looking for freedom and Liberty and not just felt very restricting to me. And so I thought, well, what if, I mean, everything I own fits in a backpack, so I don't need much space. What if I just found, you know, like a van I can call home and then no matter where I go, I can always come back and if I need to move my home, it's just a matter of starting the engine and moving it.
[00:51:09] So, yes. And it's really windy today. So that's why we were walking back and forth. If that's what you're
[00:51:14] Host: noticing. Yeah. It's, it's kind of nice. The wind I can say. I can say the, the shadow of, uh, something. It's nice. Yeah. So tell me, can you tell me a little bit more about your life? So you're living in this van and you kind of, you know, you seem to be quite living, living quite a simple life, like in.
[00:51:35] Everything you own being able to fit into the backpack, maybe except for the van and this, and, and, and you just kind of, um, you're quite open and living from a state of presence as much as you can and, and you're, you're learning constantly. Um, I'm just kind of curious about yeah. What your life's looked like since you came back from this book tour and how you spend your days.
[00:51:59] And I know.
[00:52:01] Guest: Yeah, no, no. Um, no, I, I cut you off. I apologize. Uh it's it's in constant transition, of course. And with the pandemic that changed everything, um, or, you know, it didn't change everything, it just switch things up a bit. And, uh, and even that was a welcoming change. Uh, I got back from tour and I didn't know where I was going to live.
[00:52:28] So I was like, do I go back to Hawaii? Like. That that was an option, but I kept being invited back to speak at high schools and churches and yoga studios and, and going from Hawaii to the mainland is just too cost prohibitive. It made no sense to keep going back and forth. So I'm like, all right, well, clearly I need to be in California because this is where, where I'm keeping invited back to.
[00:52:49] So it's like, but where in California, it's a huge state. Um, and so the idea of just how do I keep showing up saying yes, without limiting myself without restricting myself, without making my own journey more difficult? How do I simplify things? And this was the, the answer at the time. That made sense. And it has made sense since then.
[00:53:08] And, uh, you know, when the pen, before the pandemic hit, I had regular recurring speaking events in California for the first two weeks of every month. And then I left the second two weeks of every month open for travel to out of state and then the pandemic hit and I wasn't going anywhere. Uh, but then that opened the door to doing one-on-one sessions with people over zoom, which has opened a whole new channel of learning and growing and being of service in ways that I didn't so similar to the friend who told me to move out of the monastery, who was also the one who told me to publish my first book.
[00:53:48] She she's the one who said, you know, those letters you've been sending me for eight years. Uh, you need to publish those letters. And I said, who would want to read that? And she goes, that's not for you to decide you just publish it. They will decide if they want to read it. I was contacted, uh, at the beginning of COVID and said, would you like to offer your readers, uh, one-on-one sessions with you online, over zoom?
[00:54:11] And I thought who would want to do that? And then. Um, Kim's voice in my head saying, that's not for you to decide timber, you offer it. Other people will decide if they want to, you know, take that up. And so I went ahead with it and it has just blossomed into this beautiful part of my practice. Um, that's not overwhelming that I'm, you know, just allow some space to, uh, but not to a degree where I'm overwhelmed with booking and scheduling.
[00:54:36] Cause I, you know, I, I we've covered that. I can't handle that. Uh, and even that will probably come to an end when the third book comes out and another tour happens and COVID restrictions are lifted and travel begins again. Uh, so moment by moment to answer your question, what my life looks like is the same as it was gosh, two, since making that vow to be of service back in 2008 is saying yes to what comes up.
[00:55:06] And I don't know what it's going to look like. I never imagined myself or saw my. Giving sermons at churches, but now that's almost a weekly thing or speaking at maximum security prisons, never in a million years, but, and I'm not even the one doing that. That's what somebody like, I'm not the one who's instigating or reaching out to them.
[00:55:27] It's, I'm making myself available to show up when I'm invited that's that's, the practice is too. And, and discernment, you know, if someone invites me to do something, that's not in line with my values, that's the moment of me saying this is off my path. Um, you know, good luck, you know, I'm not, I'm not mocking your, your intention.
[00:55:51] It's just not in line with mine. And that's when I bought out. And so knowing what the bow into and what, just with your invitation, you asked me a month and a half in advance pick a date. And I said, I'm very happy to talk to you, but I need to set some boundaries. I can't commit to you now where I'm going to be a month from now.
[00:56:08] Can we, you know, so setting boundaries is really important. Um, And if that meant, well then, sorry, I can't have you on the show then, then there's just, this wasn't wouldn't have happened, but you've been, um, just as flexible and fluid with me and it's worked out and I'm glad it did. Uh, but that's, I mean, it started the Buddhist bootcamp podcast started because I was on a podcast with someone from Australia many years ago, who at the end of the interview said, well, timber, why don't you have your own podcast?
[00:56:41] I'm like, again, who would want to listen to that? It's like, wait, that's not for me to decide. And I said, well, I wouldn't even know where to start. And they said, we will help you get started. We will order you a microphone. We will show you how to do it all. And you just do it. And that has opened up the message to a completely different audience than people who read books or watch YouTube or on Instagram.
[00:57:02] You know, it's just, my intention is to meet people where they are, wherever that may be. I want to be the welcoming committee. My friend called me the gateway drug to spirituality. The one that gets you and then you, by all means you can move on to much deeper, much, much deeper and more scholarly studies of ancient traditions.
[00:57:24] That is not where I am. I am. I am that greeter. When you walk into the store, I'm the host. When you walk into the restaurant, I will show you to your booth and I will hand you a menu and then someone, and then you can go on from there. But I want to remain on the ground floor. I want to stay welcoming people onto the path when, wherever they've come from, whether they've come from a previous tradition with which they were raised, whether they are in prison, whether they're in high school or whether they're 80 years old, wherever they are in life, when they are ready to take that first step, I want to be there to welcome them.
[00:57:59] And it's just, no matter how many years I do this, I want to remain on that ground floor. If that makes sense, because I think even if you've been on this path for a long time, It's important to be reminded of and to keep one foot grounded in the basics and the traditions in the beginning of it all without getting so lost, you know, and in language and practices that somehow, sometimes take us, make us forget why, you know, the foundation.
[00:58:33] And so I'm maybe to my own detriment, I don't know, but that's, my intention is to stay on the ground floor. Hmm. I'm curious. I don't know if that even answered your question, but that's
[00:58:43] Host: yeah. It's a beautiful thing. What you just shared and yeah, I definitely get that sense from you and even this kind of, I get a sense of like a, um, uh, like a gentleness and a patients and a, um, yeah.
[00:59:00] Willingness to. Wherever, um, someone might be at, I definitely feel that from you that's I think that's, that happens when you have a quality that you work on and where you do what we've been speaking around of kind of focusing in on that and checking in with that when different invitations from life can be mum former or another.
[00:59:21] And yeah, that's kind of just kind of coming out of you, just like kind of oozing out. I got a feel that that's, that's definitely there. So thank you. Um, yeah. I'm curious to know why you said even at your detriment though, like even if it may be, is there something that is something happening in
[00:59:41] Guest: that space?
[00:59:41] Because I don't know. I, you know, I don't know. Someone may say, Hey, I want to dive deeper. And I'm like, sorry, I don't go to that floor. You know? And that may be a disservice to them. I don't know that I trust that when they get to that floor, there's going to be someone on that floor to walk them through it.
[00:59:56] Uh, I. You know, it's like everything else speak, uh, speak the language that the person in front of you understands. And so I'm very happy to direct people who are looking for something other than what I have to offer elsewhere. Uh, you know, it's, it's not like I, I need everyone to listen to what I have to know.
[01:00:23] I I'll give you an example. When I toured with the first book, Buddhist bootcamp across the U S I got to the east coast and I gave a talk at a public library in Virginia, and it was a room full of hundreds of people. And I'm there. And just, you know, I'm not a public speaker. I it's just really uncomfortable for me, but it's what I'm being called to do.
[01:00:45] So that's what I do. And I'm there and I'm doing my thing, and I know I I'm, I'm watching the audience and I see this old man with this long beard, just looking at me in this, this look in his eye that I just know he's. The moment. I opened the floor for questions, his hands going to go up and sure enough, his hands, the first to go up and I call on him and he asks me if I've ever read anything by Steven bachelor.
[01:01:11] And I go, no, never heard of him. And he goes, I think you would do well to listen to him. And I'm like, all right, so next day, I'm back in the car, you know, traveling to the next town to give another talk. And I download Steven Batchelor's books. He's got, uh, an incredible one called Buddhism without beliefs and another one called confessions of a Buddhist atheist.
[01:01:33] And, and I'm listening to these books and my jaw is just dropped the whole time. And I'm like, I totally get why this man suggested that I listened to this book because this Stephen Basler is talking to. The exact same things I'm talking about, but he is way more academic and scholarly and worldly and knowledgeable and you know, or just certified to do it where I'm just trying to figure it out.
[01:02:00] And so I called my editor and I said, oh my gosh, I think I made a huge mistake publishing this book. Um, and when I talked to the publisher and, and, and, and I said, you know, if I had read Steven Batchelor's books prior to publishing Buddhist bootcamp, I wouldn't have published Buddhist bootcamp. I would have dedicated my entire life to helping spread Stephen Batchelor's message because he's got it all covered.
[01:02:24] And luckily my publisher said, timber, it's a very good thing that you published your book because you are reaching an audience that Steven Basler is not, and he is reaching an audience that you are not, you know what I mean? Like we are speaking the similar message, but in such different. I mean, Steven Basler is very academic.
[01:02:45] He is just, just factual, you know, and, and, and it's wonderful. And it resonates with me because that's, that's how I learn. I like that. But for many people it's way too structured, whereas mine is colloquial and just, just everyday language and, and, um, personal experiences. And, and, and some of it is his as well, but it's very, I don't know how to say it, but it's a very different approach.
[01:03:13] And, and so again, I just trust that even if it's quote unquote to my detriment, meaning I'm, I may have led someone astray that was never my intention. It was to help them. Whatever is next. Go ahead.
[01:03:33] Host: No, no, yeah, I get what you're saying. This is really good. What you've just shared is like, amazing. Like, this is helpful for me personally in a really appreciate, like, I really appreciate that.
[01:03:43] It's it's because that story in itself, um, that's such a huge lesson and it's something that, you know, I, I feel a lot of us need reminding of, because it's so easy to look into. I mean, yeah. Look at it's like, it's, it's, it's kind of like the trap of comparison, but there's also something else to it. I guess, a sense of, um, feeling like, um, unworthy or feeling like we need to be like someone else rather than just kind of trusting in our own vibe or our own spirit or our own style or our in journey, like you said, around the forest and the path, it's kind of a similar thing,
[01:04:22] Guest: right?
[01:04:23] It's a way to duck and dive around imposter syndrome. You know, when you feel like, who am I to say? It's like, well, that's not for you to decide, you know, you may have said the same exact same thing that this person said, but for whatever reason, your voice resonates with someone better than that person.
[01:04:37] So you don't determine the value of your work, that the work itself has value. Yeah.
[01:04:44] Host: And what you were saying, this whole idea of having like younger versions of older past versions of ourselves, however you want to word it. And then, you know, us kind of paying tribute to them in certain ways. Um, and then, you know, paying tribute to the other, you know, paying it forward in a sense, and by, by the presence in every moment also comes into it as well, because there's, there is a sense of, um, always being a learner.
[01:05:11] And if that's the approach, then you can't really, there's no right or wrong there. It's just, you know, what has happened. You've made that book at that time because that's where you're at. And that's kind of your, you had, you probably had that mentality as well, and you were reaching a certain type of audience.
[01:05:27] And I think that's more, again, coming into this sense of what we're talking about, about tight letting go or loosening the grip as I really liked your reframe there, the sense of just kind of, um, you know, just loosening that grip a little bit and allowing, you know, and honoring your own path and your own journey and, um, not comparing it and not feeling like you need to kind of be in a different space.
[01:05:50] This is kind of like a really a great reminder that I think is worth kind of, and I think the whole idea of a reminder on, on what a seemingly basics or foundation, or I think that's quite worthy in itself. And also what we were saying about this spirit of simply. Like maybe this Steven character has amazing work, but maybe it's maybe your work is, is, is it's got a different flavor and that in its own right.
[01:06:19] Is a beautiful color of the spectrum to add into the mix. Like what would we, how would the world be without it? Like, it would be a little bit less vibrant. So, you know, so it's the sense of, yeah, I really appreciate that message and I'm glad
[01:06:33] Guest: I didn't even know that's what you needed to hear, but apparently it is, and I'm glad, and it just came out and the way it needed to, and yeah, there's no, I mean, that's what I love about Rumi's invitation beyond right and wrong.
[01:06:45] There is a field I will meet you there. And that's where I think we ought to set up camp and just hang out in that field beyond right and wrong. Um, I think that's where we met today. I think that was the, the grounds on which we have this conversation and it's been really wonderful to share this space with.
[01:07:04] Host: Yeah, and I really appreciate everything. I just, this is a big hug coming your way from across the, um, from across Australia, across the ocean and across the interwebs. Um, I was wondering if there's anything you wanted to share more around the podcasts. Um, if there's any way you wanted to share more about, I'm curious about your upcoming book, but also about kind of what you've done and where you can direct people.
[01:07:26] Cause I know a lot of the books that you sell, you kind of donate that money back into prisons or to do tours
[01:07:34] Guest: to, uh, all the information is available on Buddhist bootcamp.com or timber, hawkeye.com. They both go to the same place. Uh that's where information is on both books. And every time someone orders a book from that website and they get the hard cover and it's autograph personalized all of that, uh, for only $10.
[01:07:53] But every time you get it from me, another copy in paperback is then donated to the prison library project because they don't accept hardcover. Um, in prisons. And so everything from the podcast to the books, to the videos, to interviews, it's all available on Buddhist bootcamp.com. The next book will be a collection of the podcast episodes, uh, transcribed and edited.
[01:08:17] Uh, so to a very similar format to the first book, but it's bootcamp where every chapter is only a page long, and you can read them in any order. So again, the intention is just as you know, as I've said to meet people where they are. And so some people don't listen to podcasts, but they read books and some people read, you know, don't read books, they just listen to podcasts or watch YouTube.
[01:08:37] So I'm trying to navigate all of that, but still staying true to my intention, to live a simple and uncomplicated. Uh, comes through in the fact that there's only two podcast episodes each month, that's it. And none of them are longer than 10 minutes, you know, it's, I don't want to do the thinking for you.
[01:08:57] I want to plant the seed. And even though the episode ended after five minutes, ideally the idea will stay with you throughout the day. Uh, so yeah, it's, I think the difference between telling people what to think, as opposed to just telling people to think, which is what I do. Just, just think if you haven't thought about this, think about this, you know, it's just offering people different threads to pull for themselves and seeing where it takes them.
[01:09:26] It's, that's the beauty of the journey. I don't need to know where it's going to take me, but I'm need to be willing to take the next step. That's the invitation I'm going to thank you for offering this platform and the work you're doing and the people you're reaching. I think it's beautiful. Yeah. And, and I look forward to the next book will lead to a book tour, including Australia.
[01:09:48] So I hope we get to meet in person. That'd be fun. Just stay tuned. Yeah. When I did the tour across Australia, man, that was, it was a blast and I really enjoyed it. And I think, I mean, culturally speaking, I did not find Australia to be a very religious place and yet very hungry for, for answers and questions and perspectives that are not of the rigid, organized religion background.
[01:10:14] In fact, there was a lot of shying away from that while still wanting something, but nothing organized. And I'm the I'm so far from organized. It just seems to fit really well. And so, uh, I will definitely tour, um, Australia again and I look forward to, hopefully I don't know where in Australia are, but I'm sure we'll cross paths somehow.
[01:10:34] Host: Yeah, that'd be, if that eventually I think that'd be quite a beautiful. And yeah, I look forward to that too. Thank you, brother. Thank you so much. Yes,
[01:10:45] Guest: I've got one more thing.
[01:10:47] Host: One little thing. Yeah. I think I might tie off the chat here in terms of recording and everything. Um, I'm just kind of, there is this kind of wondering, coming up around, I dunno, like, um, there is a sense of, I have even asking the question itself makes, so the question, if that makes sense, and it doesn't need to be all the time, but there is this idea of, um, yeah, this balance that you have seems quite beautiful, this stance of simplicity, but still broadcasting.
[01:11:16] And sometimes I feel like, you know, these chats are wonderful and the part of the, part of it where, um, I get to look into the guest's life and work even pre chat is client opening and being able to share that is, is a gift. There is a sense sometimes. Um, this idea of all the marketing and all the money side of things
[01:11:40] Guest: and all that.
[01:11:41] Did we get disconnected? I
[01:11:44] Host: can still hear you. Can you hear me?
[01:11:49] Guest: I think. Michael, we, we got disconnected at some point. That's okay. Can you hear me in the way? Okay. Yeah, I can. Yeah, just, I lost a whole bunch. I lost at least a minute.
[01:12:01] Host: Uh, so all I was saying was, um, there's a sense of the beauty of everything that's happening and, and there is a simplicity and a maybe following the simplicity is the answer now that I'm talking into it, but there is a sense of all the marketing and all the money and all the kind of all the things that I somehow, and maybe it's worth me contemplating why I look at why I tense up around those areas because they seem to be the biggest lessons when we are tensing up.
[01:12:29] But the idea of, um, managing the money and managing the marketing side, I don't even know all, that's a massive question, mark, because it doesn't feel as natural as sharing it, sharing. Wonderful. Energies of people
[01:12:45] Guest: and sharing. Yeah. And, and I, I hear you because I struggled with it of course, myself, right off the right out the gate.
[01:12:51] Uh, and so I really simplified it for myself. Yes. And I said, the messages in Buddhist bootcamp, this is ancient stuff. Uh, it's not mine. I, I don't claim any ownership. So I immediately separated myself into two there's Buddhist bootcamp and there's timber, Hawkeye, and timber Hawkeye is not to benefit financially from anything that would his boot camp does.
[01:13:08] And so it just kind of created a completely separate account. And so anything to promote the book comes out of the Buddhist bootcamp account. That's what it's there for. That's what it does. So it just feeds itself and promotes itself. And does all of that. Now, if timber needs money, timber gets a job. As you know, timber does something to, to support himself, but it can't be through Buddhist bootcamp.
[01:13:29] So that's how I've kind of separated that, and that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Because I couldn't, I would, I knew I would get caught in that trap going this isn't my money. Why am I spending, you know, and I have to justify it. And I'm like, I don't need to do that to anybody for anybody's benefit. This is how I rest at peace at night every day, knowing that I am being congruent with my intention and that I'm not using this to profit myself, you know, I learned how to live off of $7,000 a year when I lived in Hawaii for 10 years.
[01:14:00] I know I don't need more of that. Even if I make more than that doesn't mean I need to spend more than that. I just take it and I give it right back to the organizations that have supported me through, you know what I mean? And so, and, and others, it's not just about me. So it really is a quite separate, I mean, I've literally divided myself in two so that I don't get caught up in
[01:14:20] Host: that all your efforts going, or a lot of your efforts going into the bootcamp and then all the money generated from that is kind of helping itself and its own broadcasts for the benefit.
[01:14:32] Guest: Yeah, and I will be really honest. The marketing, the promoting for the book is done by readers of the book. You know, they, it's really very organic. Uh, they're the ones who are like, oh my God, I loved it. I got 10 more copies to give to my friends. And then they liked it so much and they got it for it. And so I just allow that and I promote that and I could support that in any way I can.
[01:14:54] And uh, that's I just breathed life into it. I don't, I don't have again, can I do more probably, but would I then compromise my intention to live a simple and uncomplicated life? Probably
[01:15:12] Host: three more. That's like a never ending.
[01:15:14] Guest: Yeah, exactly. And so this is enough, you know, I, again, I buy the books, they cost me $9 a book and I sell them for $10 a book, even though the price on them is 15.
[01:15:25] Can I charge more? But I don't need, you know what I mean? Like
[01:15:29] Host: I'm in the same boat as you then. How do you finance yourself when the effort's going into this other space is my question. Like, how would that, I mean, I know it's different for everyone,
[01:15:39] Guest: but there's this it's different for everyone. And for me, it's not about making a lot of money.
[01:15:42] It's about not having any expenses. And I've somehow ended up in a really incredible scenario where I don't really have any expenses.
[01:15:50] Host: Yeah. Because it goes back to that fish. Right. You've got your fish a day
[01:15:57] back. I feel the same. I feel like my life's very much the same. It's just, I mean, this kind of weed space of, um, knowing that a change is coming and yeah.
[01:16:07] Guest: Just to stay open to it. And, um, again, going back to your friend, buying the house, it's such a big decision because it's not just. You know, when you buy the house, it's not just, oh, I can afford to buy the house.
[01:16:19] You're also making decision to work full time for the next, what, 30 years? Like, that's the big decision that I can't say it's not the house itself. It's, it's not even the roof going out in 10 years and having to replace it. It's not even the property tax. It's just, that's such, it's one decision. It's like having a child.
[01:16:35] It's one decision that makes so many of your future decisions for you, but not necessarily in the direction you want to go. So for me not having a house, I at least having one on wheels is very liberating because I know I'm not committed, stuck, or any of the things that most people complain about. The stuckness, the, you know, in moveability I have eliminated that option.
[01:17:02] Um, I mean, to some degree, if I wanted to move somewhere like New Zealand, um, I couldn't take my RV there, but I can always, you know what I mean? But they're figure out. Oh, of course. That's just it. And that's and if I was attached to the house, then yeah, that would be a real problem, but it's just like the robes.
[01:17:19] Um, I will wear them until they no longer serve their purpose and then someone else will take them up and love them. And that's the idea is to stay in the flow because you can't redirect the river. So just flow with it.
[01:17:32] Host: Thank you for your participation. In this episode of the dream of podcast, I'll leave links on our beautiful guests in the show notes section on the website, where you can check out all their wonderful work and offerings.
[01:17:46] And if you're interested in working one-on-one with me, feel free to head over to today, dream.com and get in touch. Also, if you're a part of the today dream of family, which really only means that you've listened to one full episode and you'd like to go deeper to at least one full episode then, um, and you'd like to participate in.
[01:18:08] Some group meditation sessions online that I'm offering for free only to listen to some of the sharp. Then please send me an email through the contact form on the website. I'll add you to the list and I will give you all the details to that. And any other upcoming kind of offerings around helping or development in this space.
[01:18:31] Thank you so much again. And until next time be present, feel alive and yeah. Be well.