Questions of identity, the self, and enlightenment
In our life, we will encounter questions of identity, the self, and enlightenment. Know this: there is nothing missing from your life! You are already enlightened. Through activating and exploring the ordinary mind through Zen traditions, we discover more knowledge about life and ourselves. In this podcast episode, Andrew Tootell and I talk about Zen traditions, the ordinary mind, the path to self-acceptance, and answering the questions surrounding identity, the self, and enlightenment.
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Questions of identity, the self, and enlightenment
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Andrew Tootell
[00:00:00] Host: Welcome back to the today. Dream of podcasts or welcome if this is your first time here as well. The podcast is all about helping you cultivate the practice of presence in your life so that we may more fully participate in the blossoming of the emergent world story together. So today's guest is a very special one.
[00:00:20] His name is Andrew and I'll quickly tell you a little bit about him. So Dr. Andrew to tell was born in 1956, and he's an Australians and teacher in the ordinary mind school tradition, which was founded by Charlotte Jocko Beck. He resides in the mid north coast of new south Wales, Australia, and he's an accredited mental health social worker and maintains a private psychotherapy practice.
[00:00:49] He has completed a diploma in narrative therapy and he studied with the light microbes. And has a master's of clinical science from the university of Adelaide. He also holds a doctorate from the human development and counseling department at Y cater university in New Zealand. He has a long-term interest in exploring common ground shared between his practice as a social worker, psychotherapist and Zen student slash teacher.
[00:01:25] He began he's in practice in 1988, inspired by reading Philip couplers, the three pillars of Zen and Jocko Beck's everyday Sen and by the birth of his son, Joshua from his first marriage. So Andrew is an extraordinary character. I met him once diving a little bit deeper into the ordinary mind, Zen tradition, and I'm really looking forward to share his insights and his perspective.
[00:01:57] With you today. And if you haven't already say hi in some way or interact, if you've been listening to a few of these episodes, I'd love to get to know who you are on a deeper level. So leave a comment, leave a review, or just send me an email and say, hi, I'd love to hear from you. So I think that's all just before we do begin, I would like to invite you to take a moment with me, pause, coming to a state of presence by like we doing every episode, just by slowly closing your eyes.
[00:02:32] And there's an invitation to, as slowly as you possibly can take one or two inhalations in through the nose, taking a moment, pause at the peak and just kind of explore for a brief moment of time. What that feels like, what that, what the subtleties of that space.
[00:02:57] Guest: I like,
[00:03:00] Host: and whenever you may be ready, there's an invitation to just let, go and release as you exhale, just the slowly and gracefully on the way out, pausing for a brief moment at the bottom, and then repeating the process one or two more times to get.
[00:04:09] And whatever feels right on your next exhale. At some point, it may be nice to synchronize the gentle opening of your eyes with
[00:04:25] the lower limit. So your out breath remaining in a state of openness and presence, as we move into this.
[00:04:43] So you, you were saying around, uh, the, the shadow aspect of the work, and you're, you're mentioning how, uh, the teacher of teachers hadn't gotten mixed up in this is just through my own words, but I've gotten mixed up into some, um, sexual misconduct and things of that nature. And there seemed to be more to the practice than the Satori experience experience.
[00:05:11] Is that kind of, yeah.
[00:05:12] Guest: Well, the, um, the, um, Joko Beck's, um, teacher, my Zoomi Roshi who, um, was, um, a lineage holder in three different strands of Zen Buddhism, the Soto Rinzai and also this, um, This a lay lineage, which was very influential. Um, uh, there was a Japanese teacher called, um, um, Harada Roshi, and then he has a Tawny Roshi, um, who brought this particular style of, uh, pushing for Kensho experiences to the west.
[00:05:47] And, uh, it was quite a disillusionment to many people, including Joko when it came to light that her teacher had struggled with alcoholism for many years and also had, uh, inappropriate sexual relationships with his students. So, um, It was quite clear that just pursuing traditionals and in terms of, um, this pursuit of, um, some kind of can show us a Tory experience clearly left a lot untouched in terms of the, uh, the psychological aspects of the self, those, um, aspects of the self that had been repressed or dissociated, or what young call the shadow side, um, had not been adequately dealt with by the Japanese teachers.
[00:06:33] And, and this was also applied out. actually a lot of Buddhist teachers, uh, uh, um, uh, had difficulties in this area as well as first-generation Western features as well. So it was a huge issue back. And, uh, and hence the, there was a movement towards the. Uh, I guess the, the, uh, bringing in feminism and bringing in the insights of psychotherapy and design practice, so that these days, a lot of Zen teachers probably close to almost 50% would have some kind of training in psychotherapy.
[00:07:11] Hmm.
[00:07:12] Host: Yeah. That's fascinating. I guess the way that I kind of just circling back to this kind of course, that we've been going through the way that I've kind of approached it as, or have seen the intersection was, is more towards like having one-on-one interviews with students or having that kind of, cause I think even Jocko herself spoke about that, being those conversations or conversations with people being a part of the practice in itself and working with people, working, um, having that one-on-one, that's kind of, I dunno, just what naturally came to me in terms of a one clear intersection.
[00:07:54] The way in which we listen and receive information and share and hold space.
[00:08:00] Guest: Yeah. And traditionally in traditional Buddhism, whether it be the Zen tradition from Japan, uh, with the one-on-one interviews, one-on-one interviews with the teacher, or even in like in the Burmese tradition, in the, the passionate tradition, uh, with the one-on-one interviews with the monk, um, the interviews were often quite formal and very specific on the actual, the actual object of meditation and the Burmese tradition.
[00:08:29] All the actual command the student was working on in the, in the Buddhist tradition, in the Zen Buddhist tradition. And there was no room for going into one's, um, um, you know, personal issues in one's relationship at the time, or the issue one was experiencing at work, or even indeed the difficulties one was having in our Zen practice.
[00:08:50] And, uh, that just was just bypassed by the, the Asian teachers of those times. So when Joko began, uh, she, um, Ian and Zen one-on-one interviews are still often, like she would have 15 minute interviews and often she would have telephone interviews back in the eighties as well. So, uh, for students who weren't able to go to San Diego and often those 15 minute interviews would be open up to what was going on in the life of the students.
[00:09:19] So jokey would say things and I'm much more interested in what your wife thinks, how things should going, as opposed to what marvelous kind of, um, experience of oneness you had yesterday. So she was very keen on bringing it back to how the practice was showing up in our everyday lives.
[00:09:37] Host: I feel like that's a common theme I've heard among.
[00:09:41] Different, uh, even like, uh, colons and different stories, this idea of, uh, the student going up to the master, so to speak and saying, bye, you know, I've had this wonderful enlightenment experience and, and the master kind of shrugging it off. And it seems like a, a reoccurring kind of thing that that's happened throughout time in different ways.
[00:10:04] Have you noticed that at all, but
[00:10:06] Guest: in, in the, in the initial tradition that came to the west, as I was saying from Japan, uh, it wasn't like that at all. Um, there was often, uh, at the end of a session or a seven day. Those students that have been acknowledged to have experienced, can show we're often, you know, acknowledged and, and applauding.
[00:10:26] So it wasn't something that was necessarily shrugged off in those days and was something GOCO started to do. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:10:33] Host: That's interesting. Yeah. I've heard older stories where it may, it may or may not be from the Zen tradition. I'm not quite sure. I've also heard stories in the other, other regard as well.
[00:10:43] I think, um, ECU Sojun I think his name was, um, and there's like stories about him receiving a certificate of enlightenment and like him ripping it up, um, at the temple. So there's, there's these kind of, yeah. These little glimpses into, um, the ways people might've been seeing things in the past and how that may have evolved depending on, you know, who carries on the lineage.
[00:11:10] Um, their own personal experiences and how that develops
[00:11:14] Guest: that, right. That's right. I mean, I mean, that raises the other issue of, um, of history and culture and, um, you know, the, the Chan tradition from China and the Zen tradition in Japan, they're very ancient traditions and, um, the, um, we can only really reconstruct and interpret, um, what, um, was necessarily going on back in those days in the, in the, you know, the fifth century or the sixth century, you know, it's um, so, um, the reason, a lot of, kind of rewriting of history, somewhat in the Zen tradition in terms of the importance of lineage and ancestry and the importance of creating a.
[00:12:03] Um, um, sort of heroic kind of figures, um, and in the Zen tradition as well to, to, uh, accentuate the connection with Shecky and muni Buddha. So this notion of the Zen lineage, every Zen lineage goes right back to Shakira mini Buddha through all the Indian teachers after Shakyamuni, Buddha, then up to Bodhi Dharma in the sort of fifth century who then brought it across to China and then all the Chinese teachers.
[00:12:33] And then through to the Japanese teacher, then all the Japanese teachers and they were in the west for getting to the first, second, third generation Western teachers.
[00:12:45] This notion of somehow passing on the Dharma from one generation to another is very important in, in the Zen tradition, but what we're necessarily passing on, maybe we have to sort of reinvent each for each particular, you know, historical, cultural period. So, you know, the Dharma probably shows up very differently in the west as in science psychotherapy, uh, the way in which it would have shown up differently in China than it did in India.
[00:13:12] So when Buddhism came across to China, it showed up in terms of Taoism and Confucianism. They were the local cultures of the time and that, you know, the, the reception and the Buddhism as a wonderful ability to morph and change as, as one would expect in terms of the teachings on impermanence, uh, according to the culture that it arrives in.
[00:13:36] Host: Have you noticed anything, um, or any shifts or changes. Based on what's emerging currently, um, more recently, or have you maybe contributed to this?
[00:13:49] Guest: The biggest, the biggest question is will the experiment inlay for lack of a better word lays in, you know, uh, in the west, uh, in other words, taking Zen out of the monastery and, uh, practicing, uh, in centers, which are often run by, um, teachers who also, you know, they have to work to earn their living, um, it's early days yet, but that's the way in which it's going in the west.
[00:14:23] There's a few, uh, residential training centers in the United States. There's, there's not really in Australia, so it's very much a, a lay practice. Um,
[00:14:34] Host: uh, sorry, the residential center is somewhere that you'd live. Is that what.
[00:14:38] Guest: Yeah, there's a few, like I wouldn't call them necessarily monasteries or, but there is like a residential training centers in the United States where you could say you could become a monk and, uh, and live there.
[00:14:53] Um, there's the, there are, there aren't any in Australia. So we are really in, in, you know, teaching this, uh, at side of, of Monash of monastic sort of tradition and that's one thing that's important. And then the other important aspect is, um, The bringing in, I guess the Western tradition. So whether the, whether the Western tradition is a psychological tradition or a psychotherapy to tradition, um, or a scientific tradition or, um, a Philip philosophical tradition from the west, as well as which cultures like in a Japanese culture, um, you know, Zen reflects a lot of Japanese culture.
[00:15:41] So what we'll, uh, we'll what we'll in Australians and turn out to be like, In my experience, um, we might maintain some, some procedures and some rituals, but Australian culture is very, um, not very formal, not even, not even as formal as it is, maybe in the United States, we have a very informal culture. So some of the, I guess my Zehnder would look pretty informal to a Japanese teacher.
[00:16:06] They'd probably be fairly much a bit shocked and so on in the way in which you would go about doing things, but we try and maintain that sense of respect and mindfulness, and it wouldn't be the same kind of a mullet formality we'd get in a traditional Soto, you know, temple or something like that.
[00:16:29] Host: Okay.
[00:16:29] This is interesting stuff. So I'm just kind of going back to this talk at Barry gave again, and this idea of, um, that what some, one thing that really struck me was besides the fear of parts of ourselves. That we go into practice trying to fix and, um, how, you know, indirectly that man. Uh, care on some level, there might be a change that takes place or there they're always used as you referenced to impermanence, um, just before, but there's also this sense that, um, you know, we don't necessarily need to try to, we don't need to fix anything it's, it's more about working with, um, and that's where like a deeper layer of the Prakriti practice kind of, um, uh, reveals itself and allows us to, you know, uh, sink into that.
[00:17:21] So I was wondering if you could maybe share a little bit on that and, and this idea of, uh, working, cause it sounds, it sounds a little bit counter intuitive in a sense. Um, when, when you initially think about it, just because there's parts of ourselves that don't, um, you know, we know we're letting ourselves down in certain ways or we feel like we are, uh, we may feel like we are, we feel like, um, For example, this uncomfortable emotions and feelings of anger, vulnerability, um, greed come up.
[00:17:54] Um, so how do we dependency? So like these kinds of things are worth working with is, can be quite a shocking, um, thing for someone to hear. So I was just wondering if you could, yeah. Maybe just open up on that or what comes to your heart or your mind when, when I bring that up.
[00:18:12] Guest: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, um, um, the, the core of the practice really in many ways.
[00:18:20] Um, so, um, you know, in, in the west, perhaps more than in, uh, in other cultures and, uh, we struggle a lot with, um, the sense of self. And, uh, you know, you'd be familiar with issues such as self-esteem and, um, this wasn't unknown in the Buddha's time. I mean, the interesting thing about that particular time in history often referred to as the axial age, this, this the sense in which you had this transition happening back about 500, you know, VC, um, From a kind of, I guess, um, very much, uh, an agricultural culture where everybody knew the place to the beginnings of a, of a merchant kind of class.
[00:19:14] And, uh, so there was some like a merchant, um, doesn't necessarily is not necessarily tied down. So the question of who am, I was also starting to appear in the, in the time of Shakir Mooney as well. And, uh, and, uh, one of the interesting things about the Storico Buddha was you've got this sort of, um, sometimes a different contradictory sayings.
[00:19:41] Sometimes he would talk as if there was a self and then other times he would say things like there's no self. Um, and, uh, when we tried to, when people tried to make sense of that a few hundred years later, They kind of like developed a teaching known as the two different, the two truths or the two, the conventional and the, and the ultimate and, and then the Buddha tour, depending upon the audience and so forth.
[00:20:05] Um, so even in those days there was some questioning around, you know, what is this self that we call ourselves and who am I, if I'm not the kind of, uh, you know, just in my role, if I'm not the role that then what am I? And so of course, uh, going into the west, like when you think of our times, like the 19th century with, uh, with Darwin and then with Freud, um, uh, with the world wars, we had this collapse of, um, I guess of foundations in Christianity or foundations and the notions of Western philosophy as what the truth was.
[00:20:48] So we had a similar kind of. Uh, anxiety around questions of identity and questions about the meaning of life, et cetera, et cetera, the whole notion of the death of God and so forth in the 19th century, moving into the 20th century. And, uh, you know, when the, when the Dalai Lama first came to the west, Western students were starting to talk to him about this sense of self hate they experienced, or this sense of self lack of worth.
[00:21:26] And he was quite puzzled by that in the sixties. And it was something that was a bit unfamiliar also in Tibetan culture. Again, I guess, you know, like, um, we have a very individualized construction of the self in the west, so it's even more, um, at the, uh, at the pointy end, so to speak of, uh, where we often get into difficult.
[00:21:50] And, uh, because of our culture is also very individualized as well. So there are lots of ways in which people in the west can experience, um, sense of personal failure that, um, it's quite understandable that we run into all these problems around the self. And, um, so I thought about this, a great deal. And I think there's, there's two basic ways of understanding this from my perspective, which I'm using at the moment.
[00:22:19] So one is the psychological ones. So the social psychological sense in which, um, we, um, primarily through the lens of developmental or relational trauma, um, most of us as children, um, we, we, we, we can't escape some sense of, um, of, of, of some, some kind of, um, assault on our sense of ourselves and, and, uh, Some are more severe than others, of course.
[00:22:52] But, um, most children will start to struggle with notions of shame, uh, or abandonment or rejection. And this leads into often the construction of an ego self, which is very much around, um, the sense of trying to survive and to protect ourselves from these kinds of, uh, attacks towards our basic sense of self.
[00:23:20] But what, what normally happens in those kinds of contexts is the child developed some sense of, you know, I am bad or I'm not good enough, or I'm not lovable. There's some basic negative evaluation of this. And the other thing about this too, is that in our culture, the self is formed very much in a dualistic way, as in terms of the subject object duality and in our culture, we, we, we, we kind of like have this notion that the self is somehow, you know, in here somewhere maybe, and there's, there's other people out there are another objects and this kind of representation of the self leads to a sense in which we can treat ourselves as, as an object as well.
[00:24:08] So, um, so we can objectify ourselves in the same way as we objectify other people. So I'm bad, or I'm not good enough, or I'm a failure. These are all objectification of the self. And so often when people come into psychotherapy or indeed even some kind of spiritual practice, Often the, these experiences are the ones which Barry talks about, which have been repressed or dissociated from, uh, the unacceptable.
[00:24:41] Like there could be an, it could have been when we were growing up, it might not have been acceptable to say express ourselves as a male through crying, or it might not have been acceptable as a girl to express ourselves through anger. So these emotions like anger or crying become, um, compartmentalized away.
[00:25:03] They're, they're kind of like not acceptable in our, in our family of origin or in our culture. It's sometimes. So, um, and also in trauma sometimes, um, that there can be whole process of dissociation so that, um, um, experiences of trauma. Such as, uh, domestic violence or sexual abuse, uh, we can disconnect from those through a process of, um, in order to go on surviving, they become kind of like dissociated from there become different parts, which we dissociate from.
[00:25:45] And, uh, often the part which carries shame or apart, which carries the, the sense of, um, of, um, yeah, shame is a big one, um, in terms of that. And, uh, and then these, these, these, and then sometimes it will to a plaque, a practice can play into that can sort of, um, like for example, if we, if we grew up with a, an attraction to the same sex and that wasn't acceptable in our family, or, uh, that becomes repressed or dissociated from.
[00:26:22] Um, you know, they have, they have a habit of coming back and, um, but sometimes spiritual practice could collude with that notion of trying to push them away or push them back again. So embarrassment budgets teaching, you know, he's very central to, um, create a space of allowing this, the, these, uh, previously, you know, compartmentalize away parts of ourselves to actually, uh, allow ourselves to experience that.
[00:26:55] And in, in, in, in, in, in, in a kind of relational trauma, we're wanting to provide a relational home for those parts of ourselves that we've disconnected from. So the therapist or the Zen teacher hopefully provides a relational home in the sense in which the student or the client can then. Through the acceptance of the teacher learn to bring an acceptance of that to themselves as well.
[00:27:23] So it's a very much not to fix it, but just to experience it, um, um, because be, if you go in there and try and fix it, that that can compound the problem and, and just sort of re uh, enforce the notion of there's something wrong about this. So that's the kind of psychological dimension, but there is a, there is another interesting what you might call an ontological dimension in the questions of being or existence, which go more to the heart of what Buddhism talks about in terms of emptiness.
[00:27:56] And that is the self in a way is like everything else. It's, it's, it's impermanent and, um, into. And has no rules in a self subsistence, it doesn't exist in that sense. And, um, and sometimes that can also manifest this sense of I'm not really real, can sometimes manifest as this sense of anxiety or the sense of, um, escaping or fleeing from that sense of anxiety, which, which comes up when we realize that really the self is not a thing.
[00:28:33] It's really a no thing, but we run away from that sense of no thing. That's and try and, you know, Trying to make ourselves real in the sense of some kind of self-improvement project or some kind of success, whether it's monetary success, but, but that's always usually doing to failure because, uh, from the Buddhist perspective, uh, you know, essentially at the core of everything, everything, we are basically nothing.
[00:29:01] We're a no thing. And, uh, unless we come to terms with that, this sense of lack will always be coming up. This sense of something wrong with me, the sense of lacking the sense of not being complete, because in the way, it's a contradiction for the self to accept itself because it was a dualistic. It's never going to be, it's almost going to be caught in that subject object, your reality.
[00:29:24] So in some ways we have to totally let go of, or even what, um, Dogan the 13th century, Zen, very famous and teacher described as forgetting the self in the practice of Zaza and, and forgetting the self in the practice of our daily lives. You know, that sense of being in the flow of being in the zone, where we lose that sense of self-consciousness and just respond.
[00:29:51] Uh, and, uh, a lot of Zen practice, whether it's, um, sitting on sitting, just sitting, uh, in the sense of what, what we call no gain practice, we just sitting. He's enacting or performing that sense in which there's nothing lacking. There's nothing missing right now. And that, that practice gradually undermines this sense that we have to achieve something.
[00:30:15] We have to do something we have to, to be somebody, you know?
[00:30:19] Host: Yeah. It's like just sitting there and being, um, you know, for no other reason than just being there. And it seems like, you know, taking that into life and having that, you know, blend through and living in that same way. Um, yeah, it, it, it, it seems like a challenging thing.
[00:30:45] And, um, you know, this idea of ambition and, um, what that ambition may actually really represent. Um, you know, you mentioned this idea of moving into. Um, you know, chasing things or, or having kind of, um, certain ambitions and then this idea of, uh, no self and, um, kind of just letting go of certain, all of that and just kind of being, and what I've noticed just in my own life.
[00:31:21] And this is just obviously just my perspective, but it seems like there's, it's like a, there's like a gradual process that takes place and, um, Almost like a cycle of remembering and forgetting.
[00:31:35] Guest: Very good. Yeah. That's very nice way of putting it. I like the cycle of remembering and forgetting. Yeah,
[00:31:41] Host: yeah, yeah.
[00:31:42] But it is quite confusing. So we're throwing around these, all these terms of self and no self and emptiness and fullness. And, um, it can just with all the words, it can seem a bit tangled up at times. And what kind of got me initially was this idea of like, okay, well, um, you know, if that's the way to be, isn't striving for that way to be in itself, tangling things up again.
[00:32:09] You know what I mean? Isn't that a isn't that as well, making their, um, You know, something that, um, that I may be doing wrong in this moment, because I'm not like that at the moment. Yeah. Um,
[00:32:21] Guest: well, it's true that we're, we often, you know, might go into the teacher and say, no, I don't think I'm doing this right.
[00:32:29] Or I'm doing this wrong. And, um, um, we can, we can, we certainly can get caught up in that all the time. Cause that's part of our culture. Uh, but, um, the, um, it's, it's, it's, it's not a striving, it's the opposite of that. It's like in, in Daoism it's, you know, the action of non-action or not doing, um, um, in a way like, you know, Joko Beck talked about what she called it, the self centered self, you could see the self centered self is like constructed around these belief systems that, you know, had a negative and we developed strategies in order to cope.
[00:33:12] Um, but then when it comes to Zen practice, um, uh, it's just a simple matter of just experiencing that self-centered self as a contraction in the body. Um, the sense in which it all boils down to this moment and this moment manifesting as contraction in the body right now, that's the self-centered. And uh, if we can just allow that to be there and just experience it.
[00:33:43] Well, each moment we're doing that, we're freeing ourselves or letting us letting blood, letting go of the grip of the self-centered self. It's like a really good metaphor is grasping in. Now, the self-centered self is always a grasping after something. And then I was ours in practice. We kind of like letting that grasping, letting go of that grasping.
[00:34:05] And, uh, like you said, it's both a, a direct and a gradual process because there is a forgetting and I remember. That's why we practice, um, you know, back in the, uh, uh, in the sixties, there was this thing called beat Zen, you know, a number of, uh, poets and novelists and musicians got into Zen in a big way in the states, in the sixties.
[00:34:31] And, uh, they took up this notion that we're already enlightened, which is true. Um, we inherently fine and perfect as we are, but then they took that. They took up that notion there's then, well, what's the point in practicing, you know, let's not worry about sitting in Zaza. And, um, but the, the point of practice is exactly that it's, it's, it's a way in which two things, probably more than two, but one is that when we take our stand, uh, or our place in terms of our posture, when we're sitting just the repetition of that is something that we're doing every day.
[00:35:10] Is gradually becomes part of our bodily memory in a way becomes part of us and they stand and what you do every day, you become every day. Like, you know, like, you know, bear is fond of you, you know, using the joke about, you know, make your bed every morning. That becomes part of the, you know, the person you do, you make your bed in the morning and you don't, I no longer have to think about it, you just do it.
[00:35:32] And so part of that, uh, is the actual natural practice of doing it. You know, it becomes more available to you during your everyday life. So you're, you, you, you, you, you, you. It becomes gradually to permit permeate your everyday life. Um, but the, um, but the standard of, of just, just sitting, um, um, even after an after years of practice, it's still kind of like, um, it's, it's, it's not always easy to do because, um, you know, w w this notion of wanting to entertain ourselves in some ways, uh, you know, to either read a book or, you know, to, to, to actually do something when we're just sitting, just being, it sounds, it really, um, it goes against the grain of our.
[00:36:28] Yeah. Yeah,
[00:36:31] Host: yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's such a strange thing. Cause it's, we were talking about kind of the evolution of where things are going as things emerged and the two blend together in this kind of, or at least in Australia, we were, we kind of mentioned, and I don't know this idea of like, uh, Michael being made up of non-medical elements and you know, something like fixing your bed or, you know, sitting, for example, that's like a contribution to those elements.
[00:36:58] And in a, in a sense you kind of move into that. I'd like to think of it as a vibe. So you move into that vibe and that kind of, um, that's, that's becomes another element of, um, the way, you know, this expression is expressing itself in this life. And, um, there's this idea. Just making, making your, uh, your home, your monastery in a sense, like you mentioned those no residential area here in Australia, but there's this idea of being kind of immersed in the general.
[00:37:33] I'm going to use the word vibe again, um, where we are, and then having the kind of, um, you know, the, uh, contagious elements of that come into play because the people around us and the setting and the general kind of way of thinking and all the conditioning and all of that kind of thing put together, um, has an effect.
[00:37:55] Um, and then there's a sense of, okay, like what does the practice look amongst the. And what does that process look like? Um, this is just things that are just coming up for me at the moment. Um, just in relation to what you shared and this idea of yeah. Just like making your home a monastery is something I've been playing with a lot lately.
[00:38:19] And, um, what does that look like? What does that mean to me? And, you know, there's elements of there seems to be.
[00:38:27] Guest: That's something very similar to what joker would say a student goes to and say, I'll look on really thinking I should go to a monastery. And then she said, why would you want to do that? Just to become a monk in your everyday life?
[00:38:38] Like you said, make your home a monastery. So like, um, relate, uh, in your everyday life in the same way as you would do at the monastery. Yeah.
[00:38:49] Host: Mm, mm. Yeah. It's just, it's just an interesting thing because it seems like there's, there's benefits and there's things that make it easier and harder and on either on either end of the spectrum, whether you're immersed in a monastery or not.
[00:39:03] I was talking about this kind of recently, and it's just been like a current kind of, um, I guess thing that I'm working, working into an exploring, uh, what does that look like for me and what that process is like? And there seems to be a few little, um, bumps in the road as, as you would expect. You know, but, um, I wanted to kind of talk about as well, this idea of, uh, if we could explore the idea of sitting itself and, uh, the, the Zen tradition of, of practice and, you know, discomfort and comfort, you know, what does sitting in comfort look like?
[00:39:40] And this might even filter back into the surroundings of our environment. And like you said, always wanting it to be doing something there's so much distraction in the air. Um, it seems to be in all these different elements, but there seems to be a lot of comfort. Um, that's something I've just picked up on really recently.
[00:39:56] And there's also this sense of sitting, uh, for the, just like you said for no other reason, but, but, um, kind of practicing this, this form of being without any kind of means to any other end. Um, so this idea of comfort and sitting in discomfort and the value in that. Yeah. I was wondering if, yeah. Has anything come up for you and, um, as I'm kind of speaking towards, that's
[00:40:20] Guest: a really good question.
[00:40:20] And in terms of the kind of like historical unfolding of Zen in the west as well. So I'll just come before I get to the question that the sitting and the comfort question, just want me to go back to the question of home as well, being at home in the world, um, in a, in a, in a way as long as we're caught up in the sense of a separate self, or what joker called a self centered self, or we could call it an ego self or whatever you want to call it, but the sense in which we're caught up in that subject object, duality and experience ourself in that way.
[00:40:57] We'll never be at home in the world. Um, cause as long as you set up in that kind of subject object, your reality, there's always going to be a sense of anxiety at the core of your existence. And, uh, so again, that comes back to the two ways of working with that is one is the kind of, um, psychotherapeutic way of, um, doing some work around the healing of the trauma and then doing some work around how we can, uh, um, just, uh, uh, as best we can, um, come to some sense of wholeness within ourselves through that kind of work.
[00:41:36] But the other one is through. The re the, seeing, seeing clearly the self as being, not an object and not a thing as a no thing and, and finding our home there. Um, and, um, so I just wanted to, I think that question of home or dwelling in the world is really important and, uh, we can come at it from both those two perspectives, the psychological and the ontological, um, with the sitting practice.
[00:42:06] When you probably know that when again, when there was two, one very influential book called the three pillars of Zen by Philip Kapleau, that was published in 1968, with that kind of style of Zen. I was talking about that from a teacher call Yasser Tarny who. It was a very much what, um, you might describe as a bootcamp style of Zen, which appealed to a lot of young people at the time, in the sense in which it was, you were really exerting yourselves over those seven days of intense sitting practice.
[00:42:45] And even in the Soto school, that can be the same like long hours of sitting. And, uh, so either long hours of just sitting in SOTA, all long hours of working on a KoAnn pushing for an enlightening experience in Rinzai and. Inevitably, you would develop a sore knees and sore bodies and, and, you know, keep practicing, keep going, push, push, push.
[00:43:12] So we kind of inherited this culture of push push Mecho kind of Zen to begin with, but then we had, um, um, the problems with that, but we've already talked about, and then we had the kind of like a feminization and a psychological hazing of Zen to make it more gentle. And, um, and, uh, and over the years, Yeah, again, in those days it would, all the emphasis would always be about going on the session or going on the retreat, go on.
[00:43:44] That's where you'd have your big experiences. You know, you have to go on your seven day retreat, you know, at least twice a year, or at least once a year, you know? And, um, so we had that aspect of it, but that's changed a lot. I mean, even Joko would emphasize the importance of experiencing some discomfort, um, uh, in a Zen retreat, like.
[00:44:07] Um, maybe some element of truth in that, in the sense in which if you can learn to tolerate. So, but I tend to think that try and find the level of discomfort, which is appropriate to you. Don't try and compare yourself to somebody else. Like, uh, people are all different stages in terms of the body and the mind and, and where they're at in terms of discomfort.
[00:44:28] You don't want to traumatize people. So find your own level of discomfort kind of thing. So it's not like a gentle kind of being able to tolerate some level of discomfort, but not making it into the be all and end all of Zen. So I think the actual practice of no gain is much more important. Um, um, and I think it's also important to experience what you might call, um, um, a deep level of relaxation or letting go, uh, in the sense of what I talked about, the letting go of the grasping and letting go of that, that includes letting go of pushing.
[00:45:06] It's just being this moment and relaxing into this moment. And, uh, so, um, I think in these days, uh, those in the past, I think there was too much emphasis placed upon going away on retreat. And, uh, I would follow in Jo CO's tradition in the sense of really it's all about practicing in your everyday life. I would still encourage people to do a try and do a sit once a day.
[00:45:34] Um, and, uh, but bringing that into your everyday life, like, bring that sense of practicing into your everyday lives. Um, You don't get that duality between going on our residential retreat and then coming back into your everyday life again, try and make the whole of your life a seamless whole of practice.
[00:45:53] Host: Yeah. It seems like you need the balance both ways. Cause if you don't have enough of, you know, some kind of a ying and a yang is what's coming up for me, this kind of ongoing balance and this ongoing kind of, you know, the right amount for you is an interesting thing that you shared as well, because I was just having a discussion about kind of client work with clients yesterday and this idea of like how people can have these really emotional, um, intense experiences during meditation and then as a facilitator, what the process, or what do you do when that happens?
[00:46:28] Um, or what do you not do? And, um, yeah, it was just kind of interesting.
[00:46:33] Guest: That's a good question. I mean, good can just come in the like. I mean, I think often it's a very, if it's at all possible, um, it's really good to have, uh, two people in a teaching or facilitating role. If you're doing something residential like you are doing, or even a one day sometimes, um, to have someone like if you have, um, um, someone, if you have two people, then there's always someone who can then play that role of being with that one person that they need some kind of support.
[00:47:06] There's just the one person that's a little bit more difficult, but like, if I was doing it just on my own, um, you know, you would designate someone as a kind of managing manager for the retreat and then they could come in and stand in for you if you needed to be with a, with a student or a client who was having a difficult time.
[00:47:28] So yeah. And
[00:47:31] Host: people yeah. Good way to play that. Yeah. Because you want to make sure that the bases are covered, but I just wanted to kind of go back to this, this, uh, thing that you mentioned about the practice of no gain. Could you talk to me a little bit more about what the specifics of that may look like in terms of the actual practice or some different methods to work with that?
[00:47:50] Guest: Yeah. Well, you, you already mentioned that when you talked about getting off the means to an end kind of, um, page, um, any, any, any practice where you are, uh, pursuing some kind of goal or outcome is a gaining practice in the Zen tradition. So no gain means that this is it. Um, uh, there's, there's nothing missing and there's nothing lacking in this moment.
[00:48:19] All you're paying attention to is the getting some insight into why it doesn't feel like this is it right? And, uh, uh, this, uh, and this is a really, really important insight to get, because I think it affects everybody. Like you take something like in Australian culture, something like drugs and alcohol, which is one of the precepts in insane.
[00:48:43] Um, we have a culture whereby we not only can people use drugs and alcohol to deal with trauma in the sense of repressing something or making uncomfortable feelings go away, but we'll also use drugs and alcohol to enhance this moment. It's almost like this moment is not, is not, is not good enough. I need to enhance it in some way.
[00:49:06] And, um, and so we, we, we, we kind of like grow up, I think, in a culture whereby um, uh, w w w we, we, we forget, we get disconnected from the. What some of us will have experienced in childhood and also maybe an adolescence, but we get disconnected from the, the presence of things that the, the, the sensing, the know what, whether it's sounds that are presenting or whether it's, whether it's visuals of trees or clouds, which are presenting.
[00:49:46] Um, but just the actual mystery of being alive, the mystery of existence, uh, which is presenting itself all the time. We kind of. Get pulled away from and forget. And, uh, and, um, so in some ways we have to generate or create or facilitate a space where we can reconnect with
[00:50:13] Host: that. You have any specific little ways to pepper that throughout our day, or is there any kind of specific techniques that you use or that you teach to help, um, facilitate that state of being
[00:50:26] Guest: well there's two.
[00:50:26] Well, the, um, there's about four different Zen pedagog is ways of teaching. I guess the first one is the first one and the most fundamental one is the, just sitting like they're just sitting with no gain is against, goes against the cultural grain. And, um, you will see a lot of resistance. And your practice due to sitting with no gain.
[00:50:55] Um, but sitting, I mean, very often talks about just go straight to post enlightenment practice. Right. You're already in, so you're just sitting, you're just performing Zen as the performance of that perfection, the performance of that sense of completeness and, uh, just sitting with that. And, um, when you, when you've practiced that, um, the while then the, it starts to undermine, it could be a light.
[00:51:26] This is this, this is a lifetime journey as well, but like, it, it, it, it starts to undermine the notion that. Um, I need to enhance this in some way. I'm missing something, you know, and I, I, I, I need to have that glass of wine just to enhance the sunset or, you know, it's, um, I'm not, I'm not, you know, poo-pooing and not saying you can never have a glass of wine.
[00:51:48] Right. But just, just to notice that and to inquire into it in your day in your daily life, we have that this is not good enough. This is not it. Cause it, it goes back to those, those real. And so when we, and then, so that's the Jeff that just sitting practice can, can do that, but then you see there, there's kind of like, um, um, you could, um, You could even practice philosophy and start to inquire into the emptiness teachings and, uh, and, and start to read some Western philosophers.
[00:52:27] And, and that can actually start to open up some interesting, you know, ways in which we've been conditioned to try and, uh, open up a different perspective. And then the, the, um, um, the actual, you know, a day-to-day practice of how we show up in our everyday lives. And when we get that direct experience of getting caught in some sense of anger or rage, or some sense of, um, embarrassment or shame and how we deal with that.
[00:53:04] And, um, and then, then maybe just, just sort of, um, there are some. Kind of ways in which we can engage with people in conversations where you are experimenting or practicing, just being. And, uh, in the sense of not having a conversation, which shows that there's this sense of openness or no thingness or, um, the, that this, this tendency we have to want to go somewhere or achieve something.
[00:53:43] You can actually explore that in the conversation as well. It's not part of the Zen tradition, the closest you would get to that would possibly be KoAnn practice, um, would come on often about trying to undermine one sense of having to achieve something or some sense of duality of I haven't got it.
[00:54:02] You've got it. Master, give it to me kind of. So it's kind of like undermining that sense. I haven't got it in. You've got it. And a lot of Cohen
[00:54:10] Host: you're doing that through through conversation is where you're saying,
[00:54:13] Guest: I think you can, we can start to do that through conversations, which are not necessarily tied to co-owns and just
[00:54:20] Host: don't have a means to an end.
[00:54:21] Yeah. Yeah, I was actually just having a conversation about that in the last podcast. So that's an interesting thing that you brought up. There's a practice called circling. Have you come across that term before?
[00:54:33] Guest: I haven't come across the term circling, but going to keep going. So there's,
[00:54:40] Host: it's, it's really, um, people sitting together and a sense of really deep intimacy coming out and the space just being held, uh, without any kind of means to an end to see what may arise, you know, and that state of being has led to transformation and healing within people and all these other things.
[00:54:59] But it's not really the reason it's done.
[00:55:02] Guest: Yeah. Both kind of like a non-Jewish practice, uh, which is, um, there's been a few people I know. Starting to work like that. And I think it's a, an exciting and interesting, interesting. Yeah, yeah.
[00:55:15] Host: Yeah, for sure. And so I've just got like a number of threads that are getting pulled.
[00:55:18] I'm also cognizant of time and I wanted to just quickly check in if we need to end at this point. That's totally cool. Um, just wanted to see if, um, if you have any time for any more questions or if you, like, how are we going? I'm
[00:55:31] Guest: happy to keep going for a while. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um,
[00:55:35] Host: Yeah. So it's just kind of the directions that I've just been pulled in.
[00:55:38] Now, it's just those a couple of things about the precepts coming up and, you know, you mentioned, okay, well, you can't have that glass one with sunset. You're not saying not to at least. Um, um, and this idea of using precepts as a guide and how, how stringent and not stringent to be. And I'm sure it's individual, but it's an interesting kind of discussion point.
[00:55:59] And I've also got this idea of, um, again, this, this keeps coming up, this idea of the contagiousness of, of, uh, of the context of our lives. We're in like the, you know, you could, you could boil this down to Australia or your particular suburb or your friends. And that's another thing that is really calling me to discuss this idea of speaking to people and with people in the way in which you interact with people I know in, I know there's some sense stories was end traditions or someones.
[00:56:28] Some, someone said something like once upon a time, this idea of not. Just not interacting with people that, um, maybe aren't, so I don't know if queer is the right word or the way to put it, but there's this idea of almost like not, not interacting with them, but, um, maybe not spending as much of your time in areas that are going to be hyper contagious and go against what your practice is trying to open you up into.
[00:56:54] But then there seems to be like, obviously a contradiction there with obviously living an ordinary life and being open to whatever it presents itself in any way. Um, so I'm, I'm, I'm going kind of yamble um, just want to see what you pull out of all of this, but there's this idea of this contagiousness that takes place?
[00:57:10] I not sure if you know what I mean, but this idea of like, you know, everyone around us and, um, society and everything. And like we said, building that Montessori within that context, but even just within ourselves. Um, and again, now I'm playing with the word self again, but, um, The way in which we, uh, the way in which our practice unfolds and the trajectory of that amidst, uh, like this, this, you know, ongoing, um, what seems to be chaos at times, and working with that, um, in a way that is healthy and radiates love outwards and can help other people at the same time.
[00:57:54] Guest: Well, I mean, that bottoms ends a compute, a communal, a communal practice, um, whether you are in a monastery or not. And, um, so, um, you know, you think in terms of communities or sanghas, and, um, one of the, uh, I guess, Um, invitations to someone who wants to embark on a career of Zen teaching is, is, is usually about also creating some kind of community or Sanger.
[00:58:32] Um, although Barry has experimented with also with like, um, people becoming Zen teachers within the context of a particular area of practice, like, like for example, prison chaplaincy or educating lawyers or something like that. So it's not always necessary to form your own Sanger necessarily, but, um, Um, but I mean, Steven bachelor has a nice sort of way a take on this.
[00:59:01] He calls it about creating a culture of awakening. So the sense in which, you know, our practice is always communal, it's always relational and we're always creating as best we can, a community or a culture of awakening within the context of a larger culture of, um, of the contagion, if you like, of, um, of, um, self-interest or, uh, the kind of pursuits that, um, we often get caught up in, uh, in these kind of, um, um, sort of the, the, the, the, the country.
[00:59:40] Cultures, uh, of, um, of what we could call it, gaining culture or a technological culture or a culture, which is alienating in some way from that basic sense of just appreciating, um, uh, just appreciating being, just appreciating, being alive and the interconnections of all of that, that feeds a lot into the sort of echo Dharma movement and that kind of thing.
[01:00:06] Um, so yeah, it's, it's never, it's always a committal practice from the get go. Um, and, uh, so I wouldn't say that we want to, um, uh, we trying to, um, create any kind of, um, an exclusions or barriers from people who, um, um, well, I mean, there's a certain element of common sense which comes into it like, um, most people that are interested in coming along to a Zen.
[01:00:38] Um, group, uh, already have a certain, certain experiences and certain, um, callings as to why they might want to do that. Um, we're not, we're not forcing this on anybody, but in terms of our everyday practice, in terms of our friends, in terms of our, um, family, in terms of our workplaces, hopefully we are embodying our Zen practice in those particular different contexts.
[01:01:04] And so how we respond to those different situations is going to be hopefully somewhat informed by our Zen practice. So we're bringing some, we're bringing our Zen into those different contexts.
[01:01:19] Host: Yeah. This seems to be like an, an element of, um,
[01:01:26] Just the words are so slippery, but this I'm just going to say it, how it comes to mind. Although technically it might not sound correct, but this, this idea of there seems to be like almost like a building of ourselves to allow ourselves to be exactly where we are in a sense. And then there's another element where that's going out into the world.
[01:01:48] And, um, you know, no matter who we encounter that in itself is blended with the building as well, because we're radiating out our practice with whoever we come in touch with. So there's just like continuous building, although it's not building cause we're already where we, where we need to be, but there's, there seems to be a process that's going on this continuous changing and, and um,
[01:02:15] Guest: one of the, one of the metaphors I used a few weeks ago was, um, Well, we are continually pulled in by the gravity of duality or by the, you know, we were pulled in.
[01:02:32] It's sort of like if you took the analogy of launching a space ship into space, um, in a sense, there has to be enough effort and energy in our practice in order to get to the kind of effortlessness of like floating in space in that non-duality. Um, but you know, inevitably we're always kind of like the gravity always pulls us back into duality all the time.
[01:02:57] And our practice in a way is again, is going against that grain of Julian. So that we can actually, uh, interrelate and being with people in the, in that sense of lightness without getting pulled into that heavy duality.
[01:03:12] Host: And then you'll kind of creating your own, uh, gravitational pull by doing that, which will help them kind of on their journey, whatever, wherever
[01:03:20] Guest: they are.
[01:03:21] No one is, is not kind of responding to the gravity of duality, kind of like freeze the other person in a way, like, kind of like in that sense, if I don't get caught in your drama in some way, at some point. Have a aha moment and yeah, I'm just having a little 10 from here. I don't have to do.
[01:03:43] Host: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:03:45] That's funny. I share that. Um, yeah. And do you have any thoughts on what I mentioned about the precepts and around this kind of,
[01:03:52] Guest: yeah, we have a preset, like it was something that Barry and other teachers in the ordinary mother, others in schools do it in different ways, but, um, I'm, I'm facilitating a precepts group at the moment.
[01:04:04] And, um, with another teacher, um, the precepts are a nice springboard into discussing all aspects of how we, um, understand, um, you know, the, the culture and the society we live in and all issues, um, around violence and abuse that we get confronted with. And, um, in a sense it's, um, A nice way of honoring the tradition and, uh, and receiving the precepts, but also again, reinventing it in a way which is, you know, relevant for our time and plays so that, um, the precepts can be a really good doorway into, into discussing these kinds of, you know, social employment,
[01:04:48] Host: even just realizing some things that are going on that you might not have realized before.
[01:04:53] I mean, the thing, the precepts themselves, or at least, um, you know, attempting to kind of follow them, this, this, this seems to kind of bring a lot of things into clarity that, um, may not have been realized before, because I think I read it in one of Tik Mt. Hans, um, books that he was writing to, like, um, it was.
[01:05:13] Becoming a monk or something like that. Um, like a guide to that. And he was saying in the book that, you know, some, some budding monks have this ambition to be like an Abbot of a monastery or whatever. And he was kind of saying how unhealthy that, that may be, and this idea of the actual lessons themselves come from the practice, not from, um, the knowledge, if that makes sense or not from feeding the mind, actually the practice.
[01:05:43] And that's what comes to mind when we're talking about the precepts and moving into them for a sense of, or gaining a sense of clarity by doing that. And then obviously discussing that, that outwardly and sharing perspectives. Yeah. It's a fascinating thing. So too, can you tell me more about this group and maybe just to close maybe a little bit more.
[01:06:04] The kinds of the work that you do, and if anyone would like to get in touch or join in, if there's any opportunities for that. Yeah.
[01:06:13] Guest: Thank you, Michael. Um, so yeah, we, um, the, um, the precepts, we, we, we, we, we encourage people, um, to kind of like personalize them, but also use them as a lens in which to view contemporary ethical issues.
[01:06:33] And, um, and, um, And then the traditionals and practice. We, uh, we have a ceremony at the end for those people who want to actually receive the precepts, you're given a racket. So you might've seen those photographs of a Zen monks with a little square around the neck kind of thing. It's called a Raca SU
[01:06:54] Host: I thought that was originally a, um, a no disrespect here, but I thought it was originally like a little apron or something.
[01:07:02] Guest: Yeah. Well, in some ways, um, it was, um, a, um, a convenient way of, you know, being able to get about doing your work in a Zen monastery and then putting the records through on, later on, it sort of symbolizes the robes and it's it's symbolize is, um, um, taking up the path of the Zen in a way it's a kind of, uh, initiation, ritual, I guess you could call it.
[01:07:26] Uh, and so the study in the precepts is used as the kind of lead up to that, uh, Ceremony of, of receiving the precepts. Um, so some, some groups, precepts groups, everybody goes to the ceremony. I've been experimenting with a group where it's optional. So. Discuss the precepts and not necessarily participate in the ceremony or you can participate in the ceremony.
[01:07:55] If that's the way you'd like to go again, it's all a work in progress, Michael, in terms of how we, you know, adapt this particular culture to Australia and so on. And so we have, uh, the, the name for our group now is a Zen. It wasn't my name. It was in name chosen by the, the Sanger, after a few different names we played around with.
[01:08:16] And, uh, so our Zen is, um, we have CNO, we have, um, members in Victoria and Queensland, um, as well as here locally. So we, we try and extend it outwards. Uh, and, uh, so there's a website called Austen and, uh, if people just good will the Ozan website or good, or my name that will come up. And so there's lots of resources on the website and, uh, If anybody's interested in, um, getting in touch with me, they can do it through the website, through my email address on the website, and always happy to, uh, take inquiries or questions from people because that's, so my relationship with Barry started,
[01:09:00] Host: yeah, it's a beautiful thing to continue to cycle.
[01:09:03] And you guys run a session practice. Is that, is that right? Or
[01:09:07] Guest: we do normally one residential retreat a year and, uh, we had to cancel it last year because of COVID and we're still not quite sure if it's going to go ahead this year, neither. We'll just have to see.
[01:09:20] Host: And when, when is that? If you do run, it
[01:09:23] Guest: starts on November the third.
[01:09:26] Okay. Yeah.
[01:09:28] Host: Great. Well, I do appreciate you coming here and sharing some space with me and sharing, you know, your, your years of experience and wisdom with us. And, and it's been a real pleasure and real fun, actually just exploring these topics and just getting a different perspective and gaining some honestly, some clarity for myself, which has been really nice and hopefully other people can, you know, get some clarity from everything that we've kind of played with today.
[01:09:56] Guest: It's been a delight talking with you, Michael. All
[01:09:59] Host: right. Well, I'll let you get back to your day and yeah, thanks again.
[01:10:07] Thank you so much for sharing your presence with me and for coming on this journey. If you're interested in working one-on-one with me, head over to today to rima.com to see what I may have on offer. And if you're interested at all in checking out some of the other videos, head over to youtube.com forward slash today, dreamer, or there'll be more content, uh, around cultivating the practice of presence in order to more fully contribute or participate in the blossoming of the emergent world story together, catch you in the next episode and be well.